This Is Not A Drill with Gavin Esler

Deep Waters - Russia’s undersea information war

Jan 30, 2025

Sophia Besch, a senior fellow at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and Ian Bond, deputy director of the Centre for European Reform, delve into Russia's undersea information warfare. They discuss recent threats to vital undersea infrastructure and the challenges in attributing sabotage to specific actors. The conversation highlights hybrid warfare's impact on European security and the significance of international cooperation to defend NATO countries. They also explore the complexities of communicating these threats to the public without inciting panic.

36:22

Episode guests

Ian Bond

Sophia Besch

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Episode notes

Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

The increasing aggression from Russia, exemplified by the Yantar spy vessel incident, emphasizes the urgent need for NATO to protect undersea infrastructure.

Hybrid warfare tactics, including sabotage and cyber attacks on critical undersea cables, complicate efforts to respond effectively to perceived threats from Russia.

Deep dives

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Intro

3min

Undersea Warfare: The Russian Threat

13min

Navigating Hybrid Warfare and Communication Challenges

4min

Understanding the Complexity of Hybrid Warfare

3min

Migration as a Weapon: Hybrid Warfare Tactics

10min

Exploring Undersea Information Warfare

3min

When a British submarine surfaced in the North Sea to warn off a Russian spy vessel sailing just 45 miles from the British mainland, a series of shadowy maritime sabotage incidents burst onto the front pages and into public consciousness.

In the past year undersea cables vital to European digital infrastructure have been targeted for damage - most notably in the Baltic Sea. With blame difficult to pinpoint, suspicion has fallen on Russia, which Western security services have warned is engaged in ‘hybrid warfare’ - utilising sabotage, cyber attacks and other non-military hostile acts - in a bid to weaken NATO countries and destabilise Western democracies.

In the latest episode of This Is Not A Drill, Gavin Esler discusses the threat to European infrastructure from undersea sabotage with Sophia Besch, a senior fellow in the Europe Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. And to assess the wider threat from potential hybrid warfare operations we hear from Ian Bond, deputy director of the Centre for European Reform.

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Written and presented by Gavin Esler. Produced by Robin Leeburn. Original theme music by Paul Hartnoll – https://www.orbitalofficial.com. Executive Producer Martin Bojtos. Group Editor Andrew Harrison. This Is Not A Drill is a Podmasters production.

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