Is Your Town a Bitterness Factory or a Hope Factory?

Allen County, Kansas is not a place most people will be familiar with, but the story is one you’ve probably heard before. Located in southeast Kansas, an hour and a half from the nearest major city, it features much that’s typical of rural America. Iola, the county seat, is a city of 5,300 people. It has a classic town square and lies at the junction of a couple of state highways. The beautiful Flint Hills and its majestic cattle ranches are not far away.

But after the community lost its hospital in the early 2000s, the usual questions emerge - is Iola, and the whole county on the verge of permanent decline?

Out of this tragic circumstance was born Thrive Allen County Jared Wheeler, their Economic Development Director, joins me to talk about the path that Iola, Humboldt and the whole county have taken since that time. And, the remarkable successes they’ve achieved. Humboldt, for example, was featured in 2024’s “15 Best Small Towns to Visit” in Smithsonian Magazine.

You might not know much, or even care much, about rural Kansas. But I think you’ll still find this to be an inspiring conversation and story. Jared and I cover a lot of ground, talking about rural community development, place-making, a culture of experimentation, and even bike paths.

Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page.

Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5.

Intro: “Why Be Friends”

Outro: “Fairweather Friend”

Text Transcript:

Kevin Klinkenberg (00:01.158)

Welcome back to the Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg joined in studio today by a special guest from Central, what did you call it? Central Kansas? Southeast Kansas. Southeast Kansas, yeah. Southeast Kansas, all right. Well, shout out to my buddy Jason Carter-Solomon who hooked us up. He said, you know, just was out in Iowa, Kansas and I met this guy doing really cool stuff and it's like, you've got to talk to him.

And it sounded intriguing and here we are. So welcome to the show for Jared Wheeler. You got it. Jared Wheeler. I am economic development director for a nonprofit in Southeast Kansas called Thrive Allen County. So I'm thrilled to be to be here today. Well, it should be a lot of fun. I have I've been through the area a little bit, have not stopped in Humboldt, which I know is like the big.

tourist draw now. Right, right. Who would have thought that a community of 2,500 people would be in the Smithsonian magazine, New York Times, all these national publications saying you got, you have to come check this place out. Yeah. So why don't we start a little bit by just talking about, first of all, what thrive Allen County is, and how you came to be a part of it. So thrive Allen County.

was initiated when the hospital in Iola, Kansas was closing. And as part of the agreement, anytime a hospital closed at that point, the idea that assets would be sold and then the money put it into the, with the intention of creating a 501c3 nonprofit, specifically dedicated towards public health initiatives. So Thrive Allen County was born out of really a crisis. So it's kind of birth from a crucible.

the hospital in a small town closes. If you speak rural life fluently at all, that is a recurring theme that the hospital in town closes and you are left with some amalgamation of clinics or some specialty shops or just a general practice with limited beds, no overnight stays, that sort of thing. So the hospital closes, thrive, Allen County is born.

Kevin Klinkenberg (02:20.988)

And its initial mandate is to improve the community health. Just to interrupt for just a sec. So give people perspective. How big is Iowa? Yeah. Iowa, Kansas is about 5,200 people. Relatively small. It's the county seat of Allen County, Kansas. The next largest community is humble of 2,500 people. So the entire county's population is 12,000. Right. So for those of you who are in urban context, you are.

probably struggling to imagine that sort of lack of population density, population scarcity. It's funny. It reminds me. So I went to high school in a small town in central Missouri. That was about 12,000 people. Okay. But when I hear you say, you know, Iowa is 5,200, it just reminds me that like when you're in a smaller town, like the hundreds matter. my. Saying 5,200 versus like 5,600, that's like a big deal. Right. It's the same way, you know,

parents of young children still measure their kids age in months. It's like, is it about 27 months? It's the same situation for those of us who are doing our best work in rural communities, like 5,200. Because if I say, it's about 5,000 people, somebody out there is listening going, my graduating class was 5,000 people. That makes no sense. So Thrive, that's our context in which we work. And for the last,

17 years Thrive has existed to enrich the health of citizens in Allen County. And that was initially in specifically related to physical health. So we have healthcare navigators that try and make sure that as many people as possible are insured. We operate vaccination clinics throughout the county, especially in even more rural and remote context. And then

about halfway through the lifespan of Thrive, economic development was added. And economic development is really pursued from the perspective of community health. What is going to be a source of good, benevolent disruption? That's my approach constantly is what is going to disrupt the systems that are in place that contribute to the lack of health?

Kevin Klinkenberg (04:45.788)

for our community members through economic development. So that's my role and I am part of, technically I'm a one man department, but we all work together at Thrive and with our partners, both public and private partners in the communities. So how big is the organization overall? We have just under 30 employees right now. Yeah, and so we're fortunate in that some of those employees are in a transition period because we operate Allen Regional Transit.

which is a public transportation organization in a rural context, which I know some of y'all out there are picturing like covered wagons. That's not exactly what's going on. But so we operate a public transit organization. And then we also have within our organization, the seed of another nonprofit that will probably spin off called Thrive Kansas, which is working for the same sort of rural community health goals.

that we do in Allen County, but is trying to create statewide networks to do that. And how did you, are you from the area? Man, my rural bona fides are legit. I am, I am from a town of 500 people originally called Thayer, Kansas and in the same region, Southeast Kansas again, born and raised there. And really, so you have to remember I grew up in the nineties, early two thousands. So my experience of the wider world.

was purely through pop culture. We didn't go anywhere. I was as hasty as they come. I knew what sushi was. did not eat. I had not had a bite of sushi until probably when I was on my honeymoon. And my cousin and I had a wonderful time. I'm just kidding. And so that's my baseline understanding of the world. But then I...

I lived and worked in churches and schools after that. Did my grad school in Portland, Oregon. And so I did intensive weeks out there. So I was spending time in Portland in the Pacific Northwest for a couple of weeks at a time for four or five semesters. And so I've experienced a lot of different contexts. And then we moved back to Southeast Kansas, my wife and family and I from Kansas City actually. And so we lived up here.

Kevin Klinkenberg (07:12.294)

and then moved back about nine years ago with the choice to locate our family in a rural context. that's my route towards economic or community development is incredibly circuitous. And I really, I've found that that was a point of embarrassment for me initially when I took the job, because I just thought, everybody knows this stuff better than I do. And now I'm learning more and more about our conversation off mic before that.

You were in architecture school before you got into community development. And I think that's, that is true for so many people that the reason they end up in community development, economic development, especially in a rural context is because they love the place. They love the place. They are invested in it and they have lived it. And again, bear the burden of what could be, or they have lived it and they are so quintessentially formed by it.

that they believe other people should benefit from that formation as well. And the same is true for me in both directions. So, really the only experience I have with your area has been driving back and forth between Kansas City and Tulsa, which is kind of like the most direct route, really. Maybe not the fastest route, it's hard to say, but it's more interesting anyway, a little more scenic.

been through Iowa. don't think I actually have driven through Humboldt yet. Humboldt, as you mentioned, has been a place that's gotten a lot of attention in recent years and it's kind of on the radar for, you know, like glamping and for cycling and everything else. Why don't you talk a little bit about like how and why has the area started to get the level of attention that you mentioned before?

I think there's two categories I should speak to. The first is material and then maybe the second is going to sound a little weird, but it's mythological. So materially, one of the reasons that the area has gotten attention is because quite frankly, it's cost effective to develop and to try things in Allen County. The economic ecosystem in rural Kansas has typically been one of either extraction or exploitation historically.

Kevin Klinkenberg (09:35.81)

It is a wildcatting pioneering economy since my goodness, since the 19th century. And so the, industries that boomed the turn of the 20th century into the 19th century were extraction based businesses. Let's pull things as pull natural resources out. mean, my goodness, near Iola, Kansas, there is literally a city called gas and it is called gas because you, you made your bones.

as part of a natural gas business there, that that's the way you made it so that the name stuck and in Humboldt and Iola there, there were massive, concrete businesses. there are these huge firms that, mined a mineral from that area and then use it to turn it into cement and concrete. So it's one that's still an operation monarch cement company in Humboldt, Kansas, but

That is the case. either you're pulling a resource from the landscape and when that is exhausted, you leave. And so that that also funnels into that exploitation idea. It's extraction or exploitation. So there's a sense amongst the folks who live and this may be true if you're a real person listening, you might be nodding along or you might want to fight me either way. Where

There's an idea, the scarcity mindset that blends in that says, well, everybody who could have left did. Everyone who had the chance and the means and the capacity to leave when it was time to leave did, and we are what remains. I don't think that's accurate. I think that's sometimes, unfortunately, the way that small communities understand themselves. They either become bitterness factories or hope factories. That's very rarely.

in a community that is somewhat remote and rural, is it in between those two extremes. You're either a community of hope or you're a community of bitterness. What could have been and what might be. So those are your two extremes. And I'd love to talk to people if they feel like they live in a community that exists right in the middle of those.

Kevin Klinkenberg (11:51.238)

So the first reason why the community, the area is getting more attention is because materially it's more cost effective to try something new there. That economic ecosystem of extraction or exploitation is given way to one of experiment. Let's try something new. And so there are people who are either coming back to the area or they are relocating from other parts of the country.

because they have an idea that is impossible due to the cost constraints of where they live. I am assuming even for our folks who are listening in Kansas City, that if I started doing cost analysis comparison between opening a storefront business of some sort in Prairie Village compared to Iola, Kansas, you will not get the population density for traffic or tail lights, but

for your permit cost, you might be able to buy a building in Iola. So that's really at end of the day, it's more cost effective in our area just because things are cheaper. I don't mean to be crass, but that's what it comes down to. That's the material side. The second one, the one that I'm maybe even more interested in is the mythological side. Why are people so interested in that area? And I wanna ask this question as I hold this off in my head.

How do you think people from non-rural contexts experience or how is their perception of the rural world formed by what pop cultural artifacts, so to speak? in the fifties and sixties, I would say it's probably Mayberry, you know, it's the Andy Griffith show. And what's the essence of the rural experience? Well, everybody knows you, you're not going to get away with anything because you're

your mom's hairdresser's aunt saw you do that. And so they're going to report back. And then as it moves forward, what there's kind of this, it's dearth of pop cultural artifacts that have, kind of monolithic effect, except I believe there is now a new pop cultural phenomenon that everyone at least is aware of that is giving people a lens to look through.

Kevin Klinkenberg (14:16.988)

and see the rural context. And this is going to be absolutely ridiculous to most people, but stay with me. If you're familiar, if you, if you are familiar with the incredible pieces of art, they're known as hallmark movies. You have had a rural experience because those movies never take place in urban settings. Or if they do, it's only momentary because they're trying to escape it to get

to the rural place in which you are going to fall in love, achieve your dreams and feel your stress melt away. And that's silly, it's ridiculous. But at the same time, I believe there is a, I think that is a very kitschy way of seizing on a groundswell of

Collective emotion right now where people are looking for something that is more simple. Our lives are incredibly hectic. We know they're hectic. We know that we are addicted to everything and anything. So how can I simplify? And then how can I take charge of my life and do what I want to do and have some agency? And with a little bit where your dollars go a little bit farther and maybe the pace of life slows down, people feel like they have a little bit more agency.

And then finally, where can I still access some version of the American dream, whatever that is? And I think that is a piece of mythology that has been so twisted and turned, but there's, it's still baked in somewhere to us. And I think at the end of the day, part of that dream in a rural context is can I be known by people and can I know other people? I'm sure you are aware of the

the emphasis and the buzzwords of, you know, quality spaces, place making third spaces. mean, we are, we are addicted to those. And in a rural context, I think the perception is when you look through the lens of an artifact, like a hallmark movie, that the entire community is a third space because you're going to bump into the person you work with elsewhere. You're going to see someone.

Kevin Klinkenberg (16:38.764)

at one of the three restaurants in town that you saw yesterday crossing the street or so on and so forth. So I think that's one reason why the community has been so, or the area has been of interest is because mythologically, it provides an avenue towards some essential thing that we want out of living life in community that may be a little bit more difficult.

in, if not an urban context, certainly a suburban context. So if I were to put a dot in Iowa and then draw like a circle 100 miles around it, there's an awful lot of small towns within that circle. Right. What has distinguished Iowa and Humboldt that you see more positive

rebound and attraction than maybe some other towns that are within that context. One thing that has really helped so much are collectivist approach to problem solving. for example, my organization Thrive Island County, especially in the area of economic development, we would be completely inept and ineffective if we didn't have

close and active partnerships with local government and local business leaders and confederations of industry leaders as well. So that's one of the first reasons that Iola Allen County has been successful is because it's taken a collectivist approach to problem solving without any sort of political machinations behind that, or sometimes even completely devoid of

political ideology, just because, something needs to change. What do we do about it? Another reason is because folks who have been successful in Allen County have taken it upon themselves, even though there isn't a whole lot of philanthropic infrastructure, or they don't see philanthropic models that you might see in a larger community. you start a foundation, that foundation does this, this is the way in which you...

Kevin Klinkenberg (18:59.088)

you know, are able to recoup some of what you've given away through tax breaks and so on and so forth. That infrastructure doesn't really exist in Southeast Kansas and small communities, but successful individuals have taken it upon themselves to think critically about the complex issues that their communities face, identify the areas in which they can have an impact and aggressively pursue that impact. So, and

I'll be somewhat discretionary simply because the individual in question is not a huge fan of publicity, but there's an individual, a family in Humboldt, Kansas, that at the time of the pandemic redirected a considerable amount of its workforce towards making community improvements as opposed to laying off workers at their industry. That's turned into almost a parabolic story.

but it is exemplary of this individual and this company's approach to community improvement. And even without a model that said, is how you do this. There's no, there's not a Carnegie library in Humboldt, Kansas, even serving as a beacon of what philanthropy looks like. This individual became a quintessential philanthropist to solve

problems and it's in his small community again, because he loves it. And that example has had a profound impact throughout the region where there are more and more folks who have been successful and have realized that their success has resulted because someone else made a provision for them and they've turned around and said, okay.

How do I address the complex issues? Not merely I'm gonna endow a scholarship, which by the way, we love that, keep doing that everyone, but we need new curb and gutters in the road. I bet I could do something with that. I bet I could have an effect in that direction. So we've been very beneficial through collectivist solution making and then also,

Kevin Klinkenberg (21:19.676)

the inspired philanthropy of successful folks. mean, that's so interesting. It kind of hits on a broader topic. know Aaron Wren on his podcast has he's talked about this as well. But like one of the real differences today versus in communities, say 100 years ago, is that 100 years ago, the bank in town was locally owned. Right. The department store was locally owned.

Right. You know, most of the, and this is true in cities of towns of almost all sizes, that your local leadership class were people who owned prominent businesses in the town. Right. And that is something that has been lost in an awful lot of communities because of, you know, just changes in the economy and so much

So much of a shift towards sort of larger corporate owned Businesses that then just have branches in places and you just never have the same buy-in right you're like if you're like the branch manager of a bank that's got 500 Locations right you're gonna have a different buy-in than if you're like the owner of the bank. Yeah and and the same goes for for a lot of industry so I think that's it's really interesting what you mentioned that you sort of start starting from a kernel of somebody who owned

an important business and lives in the town and says, just like you said, I'm not going to just do a scholarship fund, but I'm going to invest in things that make, improve quality of life where I am. Right. And I guess that's, as you were, as you were talking about that, I, I couldn't help but wonder, and I'll, I'll ask you directly if you, do you think a community can outsource its self identity? no. Okay. Okay. So, but that's, that's the tug.

When so many things are operated or owned remotely is what happens is this, I really think an existential crisis for a community to go, then what are we and who are we? And if you don't have a thing to point to that provides an place of orientation for your community, it gets really hard to then invite people to invest in that community.

Kevin Klinkenberg (23:44.63)

And so I think that's, I think you're exactly right. That when, when that autonomy evaporates, then you do have a, identity crisis, so to speak. And so that's one thing that's been really interesting in both Iola and Humboldt is, you know, the businesses that are added, we have some community investment, groups and, some microloan groups and

so on and so forth. The businesses that have been added are not, mean, there is no retailer that's saying we'd love to drop a branch in your town of 5,000 people. It doesn't make sense for them. So what's added is homegrown. It's local entrepreneurs who we claw to find capital for them and then they take a swing and we're fortunate in that. I sit on a board of what we call a entrepreneurial community.

a lending group, micro loans. although, you know, to us, they're not micro to other folks. might be, we have over 25 loans on the book right now and 99.9 % of them are making their payments with regularity. And we have businesses that are crossing that year to five to year six, year six threshold, which is enormous for anybody in the entrepreneurial world. And we've just been fortunate because, there's nobody coming to rescue us.

think that is, that is a shift in mindset for small communities. That's so important and it requires a bit of, I mean, you, have to be brutally honest with yourself that you, you need to empower the folks who are there to ask why not instead of why here. Yeah. And

If something else comes along, if something locates itself in your community, that is an extra. But if you can empower the folks who are local to take a chance, then I think you're onto something that could be sustainable. Yeah. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more, maybe some specific examples of like the homegrown approach. The reason I ask that is I'm old enough to remember

Kevin Klinkenberg (26:09.818)

that the standard approach to rural economic development for a long, time was go plat an industrial park on the edge of town, put the infrastructure in, and try to attract what basically were like low wage industrial jobs from big companies. that's how you will save your community. what you're describing is a really different sort of a bottom up approach to working with people who are already there.

I wonder if you could talk more about like some of the successes or some of the other couple of stories you can share. Absolutely. and we still do that. I mean, I, got, I got two industrial parks right now that are planning and ready to rock. So if you're out there listening and you, and you want to, know, you need a spot for your biofuel company, hit me up. Cause I am ready to talk. so we're not, we're not opposed to that approach. I just think that, charting that as the only course is, really risky.

And to be honest, I don't know how much, how reliable it is. I think it's a part of a solution model. But so for example, we have a coffee shop in Iola, Kansas. Every community has got a coffee shop at this point. It doesn't matter how small you are. This coffee shop, shout out Wild Bloom Coffee in Iola. And this coffee shop got started as a

lower level commercial space on the square. Like every other cute coffee shop in a small town bought the bare minimum square footage that they could afford as just one half of a building, one half of the lower level of a building. And the coffee shop has been so successful and it's been able to

apply for and receive grant funding. It's been able to benefit from a neighborhood revitalization program that's a tax rebate program when they made improvements to the space. It works considerably with our organization in small business coaching and in capital pursuit through our micro loan program. And this coffee shop has now purchased the entire building that they're in. They offer

Kevin Klinkenberg (28:29.468)

kind of a subscription based bourbon taste in nights and cigar bar evenings. And they're going to expand to catering and they they serve brunch now. And in our little coffee shop in Southeast Kansas, the other day I had the best ramen I've had in years. we have, they're really talented folks who are owning and operating that shop, but it's been able to expand consistently.

due to again, these collectivist approach because there's so many people, it's not only that they serve a great product, they do. It's not only that they provide a great customer experience, which they do, but it's also because they have been willing to not only want help, but ask for help. And that's an enormous difference. Wanting help is just the awareness that you need something. Asking for help is putting your hand in the air,

I said, okay, I'm willing to reach out and grab whomever is going to help out, but I'm asking for it. And so that's an example that we've had in Iola. In Humboldt, Kansas, and I can take no credit for this, there's a group known as a Boulder Humboldt. And that is a confederation of business owners, entrepreneurs, movers and shakers who have added businesses throughout Humboldt. So the best...

And from my money, the best little honky tonk in Kansas is the Hitching Post in Humboldt, Kansas. And they have live music every night, every weekend night, excuse me. Probably the most expansive collection of whiskeys that you could want or need. And it is an incredibly successful business and an incredibly successful gathering place. And again, was started.

by an individual who moved to Humboldt who had connections with people who had multiple generations of their family within Humboldt. And they were able to continue to build that business and be patient as it was built. they live, to your point earlier, they live and work in the community. The gentleman who owns that business is a city council person in Humboldt, Kansas. And...

Kevin Klinkenberg (30:48.88)

is really devoted towards overall community health and community growth. those are, and those businesses are now moving beyond. So Hitching Post is moving towards, I think it's third year of operations. So kind of living past that initial start at birth. Wild Bloom, I believe is to year four and five in Iola. So we have some wonderful businesses that are outside of what people would expect in a small community.

again, because there've been collectivist approach. So hitching posts exists because of the collective that is a bold or humble and humble. Wild Bloom exists because of multiple collective groups within Iola that were, had a vested interest in these success stories. So the one, I confess the one business I remember from going through Iola is I stopped at the butcher shop right off the highway, which was a pretty incredible operation.

And I think at the time I was kind of thinking about, we're not very far from ranch country. I had a cooler with me. want to buy some steaks or whatever and take them home with me. And of course the selection was incredible. The prices were way better than when I get in the city. And it's pretty much like fresh off the ranch. Right. I mean, you might have driven by cattle that were lamenting that their buddy was gone and ended up in your cooler instead.

Yeah. So one of the thing I definitely I know about the area is you have this north south bike trail. Yeah. That comes through that goes for, I don't know, 100 miles or something. Yeah. Is that the Prairie Spirit? Prairie Spirit Trail. Yeah. What impact has that had on the area? So one, we have a very high rate of folks who bike or walk to work. Comparatively, I just pulled that data.

We are higher than the state average, I think almost twice as high as the state average and people that walk or bike to work. So to me, that signifies two things. is it's pedestrian or bike traffic is built into the community. think part of that is because of the trails. There's 60 miles of trail in Allen County alone.

Kevin Klinkenberg (33:09.622)

so that's around the, what will become the new state park, Lehigh Portland state park. That's going to be on the edge of Viola. let's say it was a lake that was publicly owned and privately owned and then was deeded over to the state of Kansas and, Kansas department of wildlife and parks is turning that into a new state park. So there's a lot of trails around that and people have access to those trails for a while. Thrive Island County, maintenance is those trails on behalf of KDWP right now.

we have trails though, that also we, we think of in, in rural communities, you think of your trails as out somewhere out towards the woods. I mean, you're go ride around and walk around, but there's also dedicated trails in Iola, that go to the hospital. spoiler alert, we did get a new hospital. I started the story talking about the, this, closing of the hospital, new hospitals added, to the elementary school, a new elementary school and to the high school, middle school, and also to around.

Not to, we're working on getting trails all through the main thoroughfares in town, but there's also trails around Allen Community College in Iowa as well. So we are addicted to trail building and maintenance because we have a population that in many respects is income challenged. And an automobile, even though to most of us is an automatic purchase to a lot of our neighbors and friends, it's a luxury.

And so if you do not have an automobile, but you need to get to work or you need to make your appointment or you need to get to school, you need to have a safe way to do so. And so I think that that trail system is. It's part of a wider, pedestrian and bike travel understanding and folks in our community are not embarrassed to do so. And it's because there's not.

There's not the income stratification that exists. I mean, in some communities, if you see someone that is riding their bike to work, there's three categories either, they're, they're a granola type that just wants to show us that they're more fit and better than the rest of us. They are too poor to purchase a vehicle or they get a DUI and they can't drive right now. I mean, that is the truth in, our community because the, because of the prevalence of the trail system.

Kevin Klinkenberg (35:35.002)

If someone is walking or biking to work, it's really hard to codify them. I wonder if they fall into this category or that category just because it's the norm. So we're very fortunate that those trails exist and they do. It also affects, as you mentioned, the glamping outdoors, outdoor recreation, infrastructure and commercialization that exists in our area. That's very helpful. So again, in Humboldt, there is a camping, kayaking,

and BMX riding facility known as Base Camp. And it is located at a trailhead. And so you can jump off Prairie Spirit or Southwind Trail. You can go into Base Camp. The, again, the state park is full of trails and also on Prairie Spirit and connect to Southwind Trails as well. Yeah. And then if you ride it far enough, you'll connect to the Flint Hills Trail. Yeah, exactly. Which is.

over a hundred miles East West trail. Right. Exactly. My wife and I have ridden a few times. Okay. Cool. Yeah. we, we, one of our favorite events of the years, we go to the symphony and the foothills. Yeah. which is, I almost hate to talk about it because I don't want, I don't want it to become too popular. You don't want people to show up. Yeah. I really don't want people from the coast flying in and, and, making this, you know, too expensive, but my God, it's an incredible thing. Right.

just one of the coolest events that we do on a regular basis with where the Kansas City Symphony goes out onto a active cattle ranch in the Flint Hills and performs a concert. But we've made a habit of going and writing a different section of the Flint Hills Trail every year, which is really a fun experience as well. But haven't done the Prairie Spirit, so I'm...

Interested to do that. You absolutely should. mean, we, we talked to cyclists who do the same thing, who are connected using the Prairie Spirit to get to the Flint Hills. We're doing a major ride and they're always impressed with the quality of the trails. the Prairie, I, I can only say I only ride or have ridden a portion of it. so, and if you happen to see me riding, can, you can, guess a, is it.

Kevin Klinkenberg (37:46.192)

Poverty is a DUI or is it granola? one? What's the reason? But no, we're very fortunate that that trail system exists and fortunate that we are the custodians of that trail system. And that's one thing that I would say to, if you're in a rural context and you're just trying to think of something that you could add that would improve quality of life, would be a quality of life amenity, which by the way is an absolute necessity now.

That's reason people are choosing to locate themselves in different places. Obviously housing matters, obviously childcare matters, obviously the possibility of earning a comfortable income matters. But if those three things are satisfied, they're making decisions about where to land based on, you know, is there a quality of life, amenity that I can connect myself with? You have, you have space and you have dirt. You are almost there. You are almost to the, to having a trail.

or a system of trails in your community on the edge of your community. Please, please talk to Thrive Allen County. We have a lot of experience of doing trail work. We have blown it and messed it up in different places so we can help you avoid those problems as well. But that is a way in which you can activate your community and you can also contribute to the overall health of your community as well. So I want to talk a little bit more about the place making aspect of this.

Like I mentioned before, went to high school in a small town in central Missouri and before that I did first through eighth grade in a small town in southern Minnesota.

things that were memories that really stick out for me was, know, if you live in a small community and you're a kid, like riding a bike is a normal thing. Yeah. And I used to ride my bike everywhere. And it was accepted. It was normalized. It was easy to do and safe. There's very little traffic on most of the streets. But as soon as you hit 16 years old, like it is the

Kevin Klinkenberg (39:54.78)

uncoolest thing in the world. You've got to have a car. You've got to be cruising around. there, one of the things that has really interested me that I've tried to, I've tried to articulate, I haven't done a great job of it, but I've thought a lot about, which is most small towns are absolutely natural places for the sort of walking, biking lifestyle that.

quote unquote urbanists talk about all the time. it's actually, they were built for that originally. But it also bumps up against like the, there's a culture aspect, which seems to not embrace that in most small towns. And I experienced that. I still see it all the time. And I've often thought like really, I guess maybe I want your reaction to this. One of the things I've thought is that

one of the best economic development approaches for a lot of small towns is to be the antithesis of the big city and the big city, people think of it as urban with all this cool stuff to do. But the reality is most people are spending a ton of time in a car, getting from place to place, commute, whether not just commuting, but going shopping, kids activities, et cetera. Looking for a parking spot. Looking for a parking spot. but in a small town,

those, it almost ought to be like, that's the place where you could really sell this idea of a lifestyle where you get on your bike and get to a lot of places. You could walk to the town square and that should be a real competitive advantage. wonder if you could, you think that's. Yeah. So why does that not happen? No, I think that's a, I think that is such an insightful question. and one that we struggle with a lot. so I want to, I want to tackle it in a couple of different ways.

One is back to the mythology. What's a marker of success? Marker of success is to be able to have your preferred automobile and typically multiple automobiles. And that doesn't end just because you're in a small town. People still want to virtue or virility signal with their automobiles. And because of the work and the terrain in which people live in small towns in rural Kansas, automobiles are typically bigger. Automobiles are bigger anywhere.

Kevin Klinkenberg (42:13.868)

Always constantly. that again, back to the American dream model, excess is our love language as a culture. so at the same way you got, you have a lot of big vehicles and we need, we're going to signal that we're doing well via this big vehicle, especially if you struggle with multi-generational poverty. Here's a purchase you can make that is a signal that does not require the type of overhead as a home.

So I'm going to buy this vehicle. It's going to show everyone that I'm doing okay. The only way to show everyone that is to use said vehicle until I can't make the payments on it anymore. that's not a, that's not a purely rural experience, but it's one that shows up a lot, especially in socioeconomically, depressed areas. Yeah. Here's my $50,000, vehicle in front of my $40,000 house. Sure. Sure. yeah. So that, that, that occurs a lot. There's still,

There's still status signaling through via vehicles. That's the first one. Second one is it costs communities more to provide the infrastructure necessary for safe pedestrian and bicycle traffic. If you have X amount of dollars in your county budget or in your city budget to build roads and it's going to take, you know, 5 % more to add a bike lane.

to change the width of your sidewalks and you have to decide either we do the project without those things or we don't do the project at all because everyone is clamoring for those things. In most cases, they're going to choose to add the infrastructure without these dedicated spaces. Part of my organization's efforts is to educate communities that you can do that in a cost effective way. You can add those things in a way that's cost effective. So,

I think we're moving the needle in that direction. I think that that's still a big issue. we have some, so there's some cultural status signaling. We have some infrastructure cost challenges there. And then also the antithesis of the big city idea is very interesting because typically when people see adults riding their bikes, if you are from a rural community,

Kevin Klinkenberg (44:34.576)

You only see that when you go to larger communities. I remember having, again, I did grad school in Portland and Portland is an incredibly bike friendly community. If you talk to people who drive in Portland, who do not also cycle there, they lament how bike friendly it is. But if you are a person traveling in a large city, from a rural context to a large city, you see for the first time.

city infrastructure that has bike lanes, has bike crossing, pedestrian cross, a lot more foot traffic, a lot more bike traffic. And it can be really alarming to your sensibility of what it is to get from place A to place B. And so, man, did we have a scare, I almost hit that person on a bike. Do I really want to deal with that back home? In a place where you're sharing literal traffic lanes as opposed to driving next to a bike lane.

so on and so forth. So I think you're right. think there there is a sense in which, you do want to be the antithesis of the big city. But where you say that and you go, so make yourself more walk walkable and bikeable. There are folks in smaller towns who go, yeah, man, there's a lot of cyclists in that big city that I that I visited. And it was really difficult to navigate. I think that's shifting. We're very fortunate in that even in our town of five thousand people, there are folks who are interested in.

making a transition from predominantly using their vehicle, their automobile to get around to using their bike or just walking again, twice as high as the state average of folks who getting to work that way. So I think we're seeing that, that shift. And I think that is a selling point for why we're inviting people to spend time in our area or consider moving to our area. Because if that is a lifestyle change you would like to make or that you've already embraced, then

There's probably a way in which you can get everywhere you need to go in Iola or Humboldt or elsewhere in Allen County on your bike or on your own two feet.

Kevin Klinkenberg (46:38.566)

Another thing that has been really interesting the last few years, in the wake of COVID and all of the policies and changes that happened, there's been an awful lot written and talked about in regards to like people moving. People leaving cities, looking for smaller towns. Sometimes they're leaving the city and moving to the suburbs. Sometimes they're maybe moving from the suburbs to a small town or an exurb.

And obviously, I don't need to rehash all of that, but there's been a lot of conversation about that for the last few years. And it feels a little bit like there's been a shift in perception in the culture about small town living in a positive way. What have you noticed the last four or five years? First, a little bit of a, I don't want to dampen that.

that exuberance for small town living. But I think the data is starting to show us that people dip their toe into rural life and then they have went back to the cities or to the suburbs or so on and so forth. But in some cases, that's that's true. Just people have chosen a city, a new city, and they've left. So Austin's a great example. Austin boomed post pandemic and now their vacancy rate in particular apartments, condos, things like that.

is astronomical because people are like, well, this was cool. And now I'm ready to go back to where my job is or where I lived previously. And so I think that's happening. The shuffling of the deck is resettling itself, so to speak. I do think you're right that there is a more positive perception of rural living than there used to be. I think it's because COVID taught us that everything could be truly remote.

And if you can survive and maybe even thrive, and you talk to some folks and the best years of their life, with all due respect to people who lost loved ones during COVID or struggled with that, or still dealing with the health effects following COVID, there are some people who will tell you that COVID changed my life. I was at home with my family. I was taking more, more direct self-care. I was making efforts to

Kevin Klinkenberg (49:00.964)

identify some things in my character that I want to change. It changed my life. So being remote was a positive. And so I think, what if I did that geographically as well? What if I did that socially as well? And I located myself in someplace a little more remote. Would that also be advantageous to me? And I think COVID also reminded us of the power of knowing people and being known by people.

I think that is probably the primary reason in which people are choosing, if they're not business owners or entrepreneurs, people are choosing to live in smaller communities or move to smaller communities, even if the numbers aren't as great as they were immediately post-COVID, because they see an opportunity to be known by their neighbors and to know their neighbors. Because when that was taken away from us, for so many of us,

that was relationally cataclysmic. And it made us, it gave us all, but it also gave us time to go, okay, how well do I really know the folks that I'm not seeing anymore? And does that bother me that I don't know them? And could I know them better? And I think in a rural context, there's still that capacity to know the people that live on your street and to really interact with them. And not that it's impossible.

in an ex-urban or suburban or urban context, but it might be a little less immediate than it is in a rural context. Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the joke that the best thing about living in a small town is everybody knows everybody. The worst thing about living in a small town is everybody knows everybody. For sure. That's absolutely true. I think maybe COVID reminded us though.

The worst thing isn't as bad as the best thing could be good. doubt. What are, what are some of the things that your communities need to get better at? like what, if you were to chart a positive course or continue the improvement, what, what do you need to do better? What are you trying to work on now? So one thing we need to do is accentuate a positive that I mentioned earlier, more firm and reliable collective approaches to problem solving.

Kevin Klinkenberg (51:22.138)

So that's one thing. A second thing that we need to get better at is our anchor institutions need to position themselves as irrepressible agencies for good. So, for example, our school districts, our community college in Iowa, Kansas, and then the city governments and county governments, they need to, we need to work together to see ourselves as innovation agents.

and benevolent disruptors as opposed to status quo maintenance agencies. And again, I think that's applicable in most rural contexts and probably applicable in a lot of community contexts, because again, you are either moving towards becoming a hope factory or bitterness factory and status quo will lead you to bitterness because those who don't achieve it will become in bitter that they didn't achieve it.

or those that you're trying to force feed it to as the end result of their life will wonder why you didn't chart a more hopeful course for them. So we need our anchor organizations to see themselves as agencies of good and do so without shame. And I think that is obviously a difficult thing to map out or reverse engineer, but what it requires

is leadership that is constantly in pursuit of not utilitarianism or what works, but what is going to have the best long term effect on the quality of life of the people that work for the organization or that the organization serves. those are two things that I would say even more collective approaches to problem solving. So housing is a great example.

Everybody's struggling with housing right now, whether you're in an urban context or a rural context. And the old ways of solving that, just, you know, here's a here's a platable era, you know, several plaits, plaited land that the city owns. And we want a developer to come in and you can build a subdivision. And we're going to give you these tax breaks. We're going to incentivize this in so many different ways. I think that's still maybe possible in certain contexts and rural contexts. It's just not possible.

Kevin Klinkenberg (53:44.828)

One, because the city typically doesn't own that much land. And two, a developer then has to say, can I, what are the margins going to be? Because I'm going to have to bring a crew down here. I'm going to get supplies down here. Are there already contractors down here? There's already people. There's master craftsmen and so on and so forth. But there's not a contractor and there's not a readily available crew. So, for example, the state of Kansas right now, the Department of Commerce has offered the frame grant.

that is going to give capital to community colleges that have a building trades program, construction program to help identify the gap in the housing ecosystem and address it. And I think things like that, ideas like that are going to be so important moving forward because they're going to be necessary for everyone to get on the same page. In Humboldt, Kansas, the most reliable developer, with the exception of maybe in the past year,

was the school district. High school built one house every two years or so. And it was a guaranteed reliable development. One house in Kansas City, who no one will notice, in a community of 2,500 people, a new house is, I guarantee you, is the talk of the town. So I think that is something that's going to be necessary is that we continue to embrace and expect collective solutions.

collaborative solutions to complex problems. And then that our anchor agencies, and this could even include our anchor institutions and maybe even our industrial partners, see themselves with a responsibility to be benevolent disruptors.

One thing kind of as part of that conversation, I might be reading a little bit into this, but I certainly know from my experience that oftentimes in rural communities, there is more of an acceptance of just status quo. It is what it is. I don't mean to say this like an insulting way to anybody, but.

Kevin Klinkenberg (55:58.22)

not necessarily a push for excellence or striving. Maybe the better way to say it is not as much striving to achieve. And I think part of that's because it's more comfortable and easy to live in a smaller town, costs are less, et cetera, et cetera. In a big city, you find a lot more people who really striving for something. Is that an aspect at all of kind of like, as you think about

the next phases are achieving more in your county? No. I'll elaborate. No, if you don't, if you don't believe that striving for excellence is part of the rural expectation, you have not been to a county fair. So if you go to a county fair and see the effort that people put into things that will never

be recognized outside of a three day event and the sweltering heat at the end of July in rural Kansas, then I don't know what to you. if it's speak with, communicate with folks who are trying to grow the best stand of wheat that they have in their life every year, speak with people who are

do not care about commodity prices, but are proud of the way that they're being fields look, or the person that is growing the best beef you've ever eaten in your life. and I think that pursuit of excellence is still there. I understand what you're saying that, and I think the, what you're, what you're actually articulating is something that's present in rural communities, which is the reluctance to be disruptive. I don't, I don't want.

to in any way rock the boat because rocking the boat will, could potentially bring shame on myself. And they still on the honor and shame, social economy and small towns is still very real because most people are multiple or are part of a multiple generation. you know, family tree it's been in that area. So my gosh, if you mess up, then the shame that bring on your family.

Kevin Klinkenberg (58:21.628)

it moves up and down that family tree. It's not isolated to just yourself. If you are an entrepreneur in Atlanta and you have no connection to the community, you just landed there, and you try a business and it flops, but then you're able to go somewhere else. There's no shame involved in that. You, you are.

a pioneer. You are, you know, you're an entrepreneur and everyone is going to be impressed by you because you had a great big idea that just didn't work. And here's 18 reasons it didn't work that you had no control over. If you're an entrepreneur in Iowa, Kansas and your business flops and you still have to live in that community and everybody's going to ask your aunt when she goes to church on Sunday, well, you know.

We saw that he started that your, your nephew started that auto body place. Is this, is it still open? Didn't seem like there were many cars there. Didn't seem, didn't seem like he's doing, is he doing okay? he's, they had to close. that's terrible. And your aunt's the one who has to answer that question for you. And so I think, I don't think it's a reluctance to pursue excellence. I think it is a fear that they will somehow.

do something that will be shameful. Interesting. And I think that that's very real. And that burden of failure sits heavy in a rural community. failure in a rural community historically is very obvious. It is driving by a field that is fallow. It is driving by a farmhouse that's in disrepair.

because there's not money to take care of it. So it is so much louder than it can be in other places. Interesting. I appreciate that. last thing I wanted to ask about, as I've looked before at coming to Humboldt in particular, I was really impressed by just the amount of activity that is programmed in the town on a regular basis.

Kevin Klinkenberg (01:00:33.979)

That's something that most small towns don't do much of. I wonder if you could speak to a little bit. So like, I always think about that, like in a community there's hardware and there's software and that's like the software side and talk a little bit about what Humboldt has been doing and what that has meant for the overall success of the place. And the credit again goes toward Boulder Humboldt, that group, and then also their

City Administrator Cole Herder, shout out Cole Herder. Listen, if you want to know what it is to be a good City Administrator in a small town, which is part PR Director, part Public Works Director, part Ombudsman and Accountant and everything else, Cole Herder and Humble Matt Rader in Iowa, those are dues that you need to put on your radar and have a coffee with.

In Humboldt, that software analogy is so perfect because that directly connects to their sense of self. And so all of these events take place. For example, they brought back an event called Water Wars in the summer in which the municipal fire department is involved and it's a part parade, part massive citywide water balloon fight, part public water sports.

events on the town square. And there is, it is pure frivolity, but they have embraced it because it is a spectacle of joy for the community. And in that capacity as a spectacle of joy, it ceases to be frivolous because again, if you are driving or trying to move your community to

a becoming a hope factory, you need spectacles of joy. You need reasons that people can revel in the fact that they live in that place, because so often we are told as rural people, it's a shame you live there. Gosh, wouldn't it be great if you just moved somewhere else? So these spectacles of joy in which people can fully embrace, my gosh, I'm so proud or even because we don't have to defend it.

Kevin Klinkenberg (01:02:54.96)

And that's typically what a small town person is told they have to do. Defend why you want, why do you live there? No, I'm just going to be happy that I'm here right now. Iola just had their Christmas block party on the square in which, you know, Santa visited and kids played games and the businesses served hot chocolate. And it's, mean, it's, it is very Hallmark movie. By the way, one of the, one of the largest

town squares in Kansas. So come and visit if town squares are your thing. First of all, you and I probably aren't going to hang out at parties, but if that's what you love, come to the Iowa block party for Christmas and you will get a taste of Americana that you have been hankering for. But again, it's just a spectacle of joy and communities need those things.

They need those spectacles of joy. And I think that's also to your point earlier about why people are choosing to locate themselves in rural communities, because they can do it in an unabashed way. They don't have to defend why they're doing it. doesn't have to be cool. It doesn't have to be on trend. It can just be a thing that's fun that you can revel in. And in in Humboldt and in Iowa, in Humboldt especially, there have been a group of folks who have sought to add

to the community calendar, these spectacles of joy that have become a collective experience of hopefulness and celebration. And I don't know that you need to defend that. And I think we would probably all live in healthier communities if we engaged in those things without the need to qualify why they exist.

Jared, I think that's a great place to wrap. Very, very, very interesting. This was a lot of fun. I think at some point down the road, I might like to have you on again and talk some more. There's probably four or five more questions that I still have in my head. I'd love to talk about. But this is super interesting. If people are trying to find you and find your communities, what's the best way to do it?

Kevin Klinkenberg (01:05:09.084)

ThriveAllenCounty.org. You can find out everything about the organization that I work for and you can connect with all of my colleagues there. You can email me at Jared, J-A-R-E-D at ThriveAllenCounty.org. And that's the best way to get in touch with me. I'm on LinkedIn because I'm trying to be a grownup right now. But other than that, I am willfully disengaged from social media.

beyond that, for minutes, not because I'm a rural lead, but because I'm trying to protect my peace in that way. So shoot me an email, find my phone number on, on the internet. And I'd love, I'd love to talk to you. If you are rural and you want to argue with me about this stuff, please, if you are a person living in a different context and you want to chat more about this, I would love to do so. Fantastic. Jared, thanks so much.

Good luck with everything and I'll definitely make a point to bring the family down and come visit one of these days. Sounds great. Thank you so much Kevin. Thanks

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