61. Reality, Abstraction, Mysticism (w/ Matt Segall)
Oct 10, 2024
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Matt Segall, an associate professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies and a thinker on metaphysics and consciousness, engages in a profound discussion on reality and abstraction. He reveals the 'blind spot' of modern science regarding direct experience. Topics like the interplay of quantum mechanics, human agency in the cosmos, and the concept of pan-mathematicism are explored. Segall also shares insights on art's relationship to divine presence and the importance of individual and collective consciousness in understanding existence.
The podcast highlights the importance of distinguishing between scientific models and direct experience to avoid misplaced concreteness.
The speakers discuss how learning serves as a transformative process that enhances our understanding of both existence and interconnectedness.
A metamodern perspective is presented, aiming to reconcile traditional mythic views with contemporary scientific insights for a holistic understanding of reality.
The conversation reveals consciousness as an emergent phenomenon influenced by complex relationships, challenging traditional notions of individuality and agency.
Deep dives
Mutual Respect and Charitable Conversations
The speakers emphasize the importance of mutual respect and a charitable attitude in their conversations, despite differing philosophical perspectives. They acknowledge that deep discussions about metaphysical and theological disagreements can be generative and fruitful when approached with openness and goodwill. This atmosphere encourages both participants to explore their ideas more thoroughly, enhancing their understanding of each other's viewpoints. Such respectful engagement is crucial for navigating complex topics like philosophy and spirituality, transforming tensions into opportunities for growth.
Pan-Mathism as an Unifying Concept
The discussion introduces the concept of pan-mathism, derived from the Greek word for learning, suggesting an all-encompassing nature of reality as a continual learning process. Both speakers find significant alignment in the notion that learning serves as the archetypal act of transcendence, facilitating a deeper understanding of existence. This perspective allows them to merge their broader philosophical inquiries towards a shared recognition of the dynamic, evolving character of reality. Recognizing convergence in their thoughts helps frame the dialogue around an overarching theme of interconnected learning.
The Metamodern Framework
One speaker frames the philosophical project as metamodern, asserting a historical break from traditional mythic understandings of reality to a more scientific worldview. They discuss the limitations of reductionistic science, which fails to account for the richness of human consciousness and the complexity of the natural world. This metamodern perspective seeks a revitalized approach that acknowledges both modern scientific insights and the intrinsic value found in more holistic, emergent understandings. The aim is to reconcile outdated views with contemporary knowledge to arrive at a comprehensive worldview that honors both science and human experience.
Emergence and the Nature of Consciousness
The nature of consciousness is debated as potentially emergent, arising from complex interactions within biological and social systems. The implications of such emergence challenge traditional views, positing that consciousness is not a singular, isolated phenomenon but rather a collective achievement of interconnected entities. The conversation reveals distinctions between individual cells and larger societal forms, emphasizing that consciousness may be a byproduct of these collective dynamics. By exploring the evolutionary context in which consciousness emerges, the speakers aim to clarify the role of agency within a network of interdependent relationships.
Causal Closure and The Role of Experience
The speakers delve into the concept of causal closure, discussing how it relates to both efficient and non-efficient forms of causation. They maintain that while all forms of causation must be acknowledged, including relational and final causes, a disciplined approach to causality can be achieved without falling into reductionism. This framework allows for recognizing adaptive change and emergent properties, thereby broadening the understanding of how consciousness interacts with reality. The emphasis on experience as foundational helps ground their metaphysical explorations in observable phenomena, enhancing the dialogue's scientific relevance.
Exploring Information and Value
The speakers examine how information plays a critical role in defining the viability of an entity within its environment, linking it to the broader question of meaning and value in existence. They argue that understanding this relationship can help illuminate the intricacies of both individual and collective experiences. By situating value within a web of interdependence, they demonstrate that the actions of individuals can influence the larger whole, posing questions about self-sacrifice and altruism. This discussion reveals how emergent properties within a network can create complex layers of meaning that contribute to an extensive understanding of the universe.
The Importance of Dialogue in Philosophy
The conversation underscores the significance of humble dialogue in philosophical inquiry, where participants are encouraged to challenge their preconceived notions while remaining open to new perspectives. The speakers express a desire to explore deeper questions about existence, knowledge, and meaning, emphasizing that the journey is as essential as the conclusions drawn. They recognize the value of thoroughly examining their positions and fostering ongoing discussions to develop a more nuanced understanding of the complexities involved. Such dialogues are necessary not just for personal growth but also for enriching the collective human experience.
Process thinker Matt Segall joins me again to continue our ongoing metaphysical exploration of a panmatheistic universe coming to self-knowledge. Here we discuss modern science's "blind spot" with regard to direct experience vs. scientific abstraction and the problem of "misplaced concreteness" before considering the proper understanding of the role of the human in the cosmos.
0:00 Introduction
2:02 "The Blind Spot": Mistaking Scientific Models for Reality
12:59 The Limits of Abstraction: From Idea to Feeling
34:18 Learning as Movement from Concrete to Abstract
46:00 Quantum Mechanics, Misplaced Concreteness, and Conceptual Prehension
58:16 The Will of the Universe to Wake Up: Towards Anthropos + Christ
1:11:03 Towards a 360° Platonism
1:20:50 Art, Incarnation, and the Face of God
1:33:09 Next Questions
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