Hope is not about certainty or a story of a guaranteed positive future, but rather a recognition of the interconnectedness of all individuals and a belief that love and purpose exist beyond time and tears.
Navigating between different ways of experiencing time, such as tragic, ordinary, and apocalyptic time, is essential to gaining a fuller understanding of life and embracing both the struggles and wonders of existence.
Deep dives
The Complexity of Hope and Optimism
In this podcast episode, journalist Wajahat Ali engages in a conversation with theologian and cancer survivor Kate Bowler, exploring the intricate nature of hope and optimism. They discuss how hope can be easily confused with optimism and how the concept of hope is challenging to reconcile when faced with unsolvable problems. Bowler shares her personal experience of living with a chronic condition and the constant uncertainty it brings. She emphasizes that hope is not about certainty or a story of a guaranteed positive future, but rather a recognition of the interconnectedness of all individuals and a belief that love and purpose exist beyond time and tears.
Living in Tragic, Ordinary, and Apocalyptic Time
Bowler and Ali delve into the different ways of experiencing time and the varying perspectives brought about by tragic, ordinary, and apocalyptic time. They discuss the heightened sense of presence and the feelings of significance and loss that come with tragic time. They also explore the importance of embracing ordinary time, with its mundane yet meaningful aspects. Additionally, they reflect on the shared experience of apocalyptic time, where the future feels uncertain and binary views prevail. They stress the need to navigate between these different ways of experiencing time to gain a fuller understanding of life.
Embracing the Messiness of Being Human
Bowler and Ali explore the complexity of being human, acknowledging the mixture of joy and pain, vulnerability and imperfection. They challenge idealistic narratives that suggest life can be perfectly cured or lived without regret. Bowler shares her personal journey of having to confront her own mortality while continuing to live and find purpose in the ordinary moments. They discuss how brokenness can reveal our interconnectedness and the importance of embracing both the struggles and the wonders of life. They also highlight the significance of hope as a story that transcends individual experiences and encompasses the collective project of love.
The Power of Magic and Natality
Bowler expresses her appreciation for the magical moments that unfold unexpectedly in human interactions. She discusses the concept of natality, the potential for new beginnings and choices, and the importance of utilizing both past and future to make meaningful decisions. Ali reflects on the beauty and potential found in the present moment and the energy that comes from witnessing resilience and care for one another. They emphasize the importance of recognizing the brokenness in the world while still holding onto hope and finding purpose in life.
An irreverent conversation about hope between journalist Wajahat Ali and theologian Kate Bowler. They speak to this moment we’re in through the friendship they found on the edge of life and death that is cancer — Wajahat through his young daughter; and Kate with a stage 4 diagnosis at the age of 35 that she’s chronicled in a beloved memoir, Everything Happens for a Reason (And Other Lies I’ve Loved). Their conversation is rich with practical wisdom for facing uncertainty and mortality, losses we did not foresee, and new beginnings we would not have chosen.
This is the first in a new series, The Future of Hope — a beautiful array of voices, former guests on this show, having the conversations they want to be hearing in this time.
