Turning Towards Life - a Thirdspace podcast 395: The Moral Labour of Living
May 4, 2025
40:11
A rich conversation about the necessity, joys and inevitable difficulties of loving - of loving one another, of loving all we can about this one precious life. About how easy it is to turn away, to distract ourselves, to check out of all that loving takes - as if that would save us from what Lizzie calls ‘the rattling sorrow’ of loss. And about the responsibilities and ‘moral labour’ that’s called for for us to stay engaged, to keep returning, even though we have such breakable hearts, for the benefit of all those around us, including of course our selves.
You can find out more about the Thirdspace Professional Coaching Course 2025-26 on the Thirdspace website wearethirdspace.org
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction and Celebration of Milestones
02:11 Exploring the Source: Wise Animals by Tom Chatfield
07:25 The Moral Labour of Living
15:24 Navigating Grief and Vulnerability
21:42 The Complexity of Love and Loss
27:19 Tussling with Different Points of View
31:32 Spiritual Perspectives on Living
35:02 Turning Towards Life Live - An Invitation to Engage and Learn Together
Here's our source for this week:
The Moral Labour of Living
To be human is to be born into utter helplessness, in circumstances beyond our choosing. It is to grow and change, constrained by these circumstances and biological inheritance. It is to achieve some measure of independence, for a time, in the context of our planet’s and our societies’ vast networks of exchange and competition. And it is to seek not only survival but also – so long as the body’s basic needs are met – some form of flourishing or contentment. There is no final victory, no guarantee of success, and no infallible guidance. There is only the contingent business of trying, together, to live and to know ourselves a little better.
All of the above entails … moral labour whose difficulty and significance are inextricably linked. As the parent of two young children, one of the hardest lessons I have struggled to master – like most parents – is the fact that my children’s desires are an imperfect guide to their wellbeing. Making their lives easier is not always the best way to prepare them for life. [It’s] more important for me gradually to help them develop a measure of self-control, fairness and ambition – and to show them how trust can be earned – than it is for me constantly to monitor and intervene in everything they do. Also like many parents, a second lesson I’m still trying to learn is that the person who all too often needs to improve their self-control is me.
To love and to nurture other human beings brings pain as well as joy; frustration and exhaustion as well as delight; the prospect of devastating loss alongside the gains of consuming love. And these satisfactions and sacrifices can’t tidily be separated. To withdraw your care from any relationship is to make yourself less vulnerable, for a price: it’s to diminish what you risk and give, but also what you can receive and gain.
from Wise Animals: How Technology Has Made Us What We Are
by Tom Chatfield
Photo by Mario Purisic on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
On Sunday 8th June 2025 it will be our 400th episode and we are planning a Turning Towards Life live gathering on Zoom. You're all very welcome to join. It will be a wonderful opportunity to meet us and to meet others. If you are at all interested and you would like to join us, please keep watching out and listening out on the podcast or you could head over towards our website turningtowards.life and sign up for our weekly emails there and you will get all of the information directly into your inbox.
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. If you go to turningtowards.life there is a button you can press to register your interest in this.
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Join Turning Towards Life Live: www.turningtowards.life/ttl-live-interest
Keywords:
moral labour, vulnerability, human helplessness, self-regulation, emotional capacity, parenting wisdom, grief alongside joy, spiritual questions, letting go, loving attachment, life boundaries, personal mastery, technology escape, relationship vulnerability, human connection, personal growth, accepting mortality, biological inheritance, human dependency, embracing uncertainty, contingent living, self-control development, nurturing relationships, emotional complexity, devastating loss, consuming love, risk and reward, withdrawal consequences, heart expansion, denial mechanisms, holding contradictions, thoughtful disagreement, dialogue practice, human finitude, sacred impermanence, interdependence, tender-heartedness, parental challenges, intergenerational wisdom, therapeutic conversation, existential questions, philosophical exploration, emotional literacy, personal development, turning towards, personal responsibility, life meaning, conscious living, Third Space, turningtowards.life
You can find out more about the Thirdspace Professional Coaching Course 2025-26 on the Thirdspace website wearethirdspace.org
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction and Celebration of Milestones
02:11 Exploring the Source: Wise Animals by Tom Chatfield
07:25 The Moral Labour of Living
15:24 Navigating Grief and Vulnerability
21:42 The Complexity of Love and Loss
27:19 Tussling with Different Points of View
31:32 Spiritual Perspectives on Living
35:02 Turning Towards Life Live - An Invitation to Engage and Learn Together
Here's our source for this week:
The Moral Labour of Living
To be human is to be born into utter helplessness, in circumstances beyond our choosing. It is to grow and change, constrained by these circumstances and biological inheritance. It is to achieve some measure of independence, for a time, in the context of our planet’s and our societies’ vast networks of exchange and competition. And it is to seek not only survival but also – so long as the body’s basic needs are met – some form of flourishing or contentment. There is no final victory, no guarantee of success, and no infallible guidance. There is only the contingent business of trying, together, to live and to know ourselves a little better.
All of the above entails … moral labour whose difficulty and significance are inextricably linked. As the parent of two young children, one of the hardest lessons I have struggled to master – like most parents – is the fact that my children’s desires are an imperfect guide to their wellbeing. Making their lives easier is not always the best way to prepare them for life. [It’s] more important for me gradually to help them develop a measure of self-control, fairness and ambition – and to show them how trust can be earned – than it is for me constantly to monitor and intervene in everything they do. Also like many parents, a second lesson I’m still trying to learn is that the person who all too often needs to improve their self-control is me.
To love and to nurture other human beings brings pain as well as joy; frustration and exhaustion as well as delight; the prospect of devastating loss alongside the gains of consuming love. And these satisfactions and sacrifices can’t tidily be separated. To withdraw your care from any relationship is to make yourself less vulnerable, for a price: it’s to diminish what you risk and give, but also what you can receive and gain.
from Wise Animals: How Technology Has Made Us What We Are
by Tom Chatfield
Photo by Mario Purisic on Unsplash
----
Join Us Live in 2025
On Sunday 8th June 2025 it will be our 400th episode and we are planning a Turning Towards Life live gathering on Zoom. You're all very welcome to join. It will be a wonderful opportunity to meet us and to meet others. If you are at all interested and you would like to join us, please keep watching out and listening out on the podcast or you could head over towards our website turningtowards.life and sign up for our weekly emails there and you will get all of the information directly into your inbox.
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. If you go to turningtowards.life there is a button you can press to register your interest in this.
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Join Turning Towards Life Live: www.turningtowards.life/ttl-live-interest
Keywords:
moral labour, vulnerability, human helplessness, self-regulation, emotional capacity, parenting wisdom, grief alongside joy, spiritual questions, letting go, loving attachment, life boundaries, personal mastery, technology escape, relationship vulnerability, human connection, personal growth, accepting mortality, biological inheritance, human dependency, embracing uncertainty, contingent living, self-control development, nurturing relationships, emotional complexity, devastating loss, consuming love, risk and reward, withdrawal consequences, heart expansion, denial mechanisms, holding contradictions, thoughtful disagreement, dialogue practice, human finitude, sacred impermanence, interdependence, tender-heartedness, parental challenges, intergenerational wisdom, therapeutic conversation, existential questions, philosophical exploration, emotional literacy, personal development, turning towards, personal responsibility, life meaning, conscious living, Third Space, turningtowards.life