

Turning Towards Life - a Thirdspace podcast
Thirdspace
Join Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise from Thirdspace for weekly conversations that ask how we might bring ourselves to life with as much courage and wisdom as we can. We start each episode with inspiring sources and then dive deep together into the questions and possibilities they open up. Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, Google Podcasts, YouTube and FaceBook, at www.turningtowards.life and at www.wearethirdspace.org
Episodes
Mentioned books

Aug 24, 2025 • 40min
411: You Get Good at What You Do
What if we recognised that every single thing we do - and everything we avoid doing - is quietly shaping us into the kind of person we're becoming? A conversation about discovering that we're already practising something all the time, whether we realise it or not, and that our choices about where to place our attention might be more consequential than we imagine. What would it mean to get good at the things that truly matter to us, or to surprise and widen ourselves by practicing new things that are outside of our familiar, comfortable range?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Welcome and Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:21 The Importance of Time and Choices
05:37 Practicing What Matters: Insights from Chloe Caldwell
10:08 The Impact of Our Practices on Our Lives
15:07 Awareness of Time and Intentions
19:09 The Role of Social Media in Shaping Us
24:28 Exploring New Practices and Joyful Experimentation
32:32 The Value of External Perspectives on Our Practices
38:01 Conclusion and Reflection on Our Practices
Here’s our source for this week:
You Get Good at What You Do
My dad passed away last December, and he was in the top three closest people to me over my life. He used to have a phrase he used with his guitar students: “You get good at what you do. If you practice guitar, you get really good at guitar. If you don’t practice, you get really good at not practicing.”
I love this phrase because you can apply it to every single thing in life, in ways both literal and abstract. If you write, you get good at writing If you look at Instagram, you get good at looking at Instagram. If you walk, you get good at walking. If you swim, you get good at swimming. If you write, you get good at writing. If you don’t write, you get really good at not writing. If you look at Instagram, you get REALLY good at looking at Instagram.
I think my dad’s lesson seeped into my brain from hearing him say it so much. It wasn’t advice as much as a notion. Now I pass it along to my students and think about it once a day. It seems simple and like something we all know, logically, but the way it is phrased really drives it home.
When he died, one of his guitar students wrote, “Rob was good at love and music. It’s what he did.”
Chloé Caldwell
via Cheryl Strayed’s Substack
Photo by Majkl Velner on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from 10 September 2025
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
practising consciousness, attention choices, time dedication, intentional living, habit formation, social media impact, parenting practices, body movement, dance therapy, five rhythms, creative experimentation, relationship awareness, coaching practice, value alignment, present moment, death awareness, guitar teaching, love practice, Instagram scrolling, screen time, movement practice, flexible being, meeting world, self observation, community feedback, practice visibility, tender awareness, blind spots, coaching skills, professional development, turning towards life
People Mentioned
Cheryl Strayed
Chloé Caldwell
The Rock (Dwayne Johnson)

Aug 17, 2025 • 36min
410: The Singing Bird
How do we attend to the something in each of us that longs to break free through the cracks of our self-image? A conversation about discovering that sacred uniqueness within ourselves and others in the everyday mundane acts of living, loving, working and being genuinely present with one another.
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:50 The Singing Bird: A Poetic Exploration
06:03 Longing and Creativity: Uncovering the Singing Bird
08:57 The Unique Expression of Each Of Us
12:00 Navigating Self-Criticism and Inquiry
14:50 Vulnerability and Authenticity in Relationships
18:07 Embracing the Messiness of Life
21:08 The Complexity of Human Experience
23:56 The Interconnectedness of Our Stories
26:50 The Importance of Community and Conversation
30:02 Conclusion and Looking Ahead
Here’s our source for this week:
The Singing Bird
The singing bird
I have a hundred ways
Of keeping the singing bird
Pushed down,
Hidden,
Anaesthetised,
Comfort-numb,
Silenced.
But I have learned
How easily she
Can break free
And Sing Anyway.
She sneaks out
Through the cracks
That get made
By laughter
And poetry
And art
And honesty
And dancing
And sunshine.
I wonder if you know
The ways you keep the singing bird
Quiet?
And if you know how to forget yourself
So that she can sneak out
And remind you of the song
You’ve always wanted to sing.
Hollie Holden
Photo by Lukáš Kadava on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from 17 September 2025
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can find out more and join us here.
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
singing bird, creative expression, authentic presence, vulnerability sharing, sacred uniqueness, forget yourself, honest presence, creative practice, inner critic, right sizing, vast universe, cultural expectations, sacred something, judgement softening, unfolding process, kerfuffle acceptance, contactful being, depth confidence, whoness discovery, messy glory, genuine presence, practical spirituality, learning process, turning towards life, creative longing, existential wondering
People Mentioned
Hollie Holden (author of this week's source)

Aug 10, 2025 • 33min
409: A Falcon, a Storm, or a Great Song?
The hosts delve into how our identities are shaped by the stories we tell ourselves and explore the freedom found in embracing uncertainty. They reflect on Rilke's poetry and the idea of living in 'widening circles,' inviting listeners to reconsider what it means to be human. Discussions about vulnerability highlight the beauty of personal growth and deep connections, emphasizing the importance of community in navigating life’s complexities. Ultimately, the conversation celebrates the mystery of existence and the transformative power of self-discovery.

Aug 8, 2025 • 34min
408: Phenomenal Woman
What happens when we choose to actively shape our own identity rather than only accept the stories handed down to us? How might we practice distinguishing between what belongs to us and what we've been told we should be? What becomes possible when we see ourselves as authors of our own ways of being in life?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
03:18 Reading Maya Angelou's 'Phenomenal Woman'
08:01 Exploring Identity
11:07 The Invitation of Authenticity
16:03 Rejecting the Algorithm: Embracing Authorship
21:16 The Inquiry into Who We Might Be
26:25 Finding Belonging in Authenticity
30:01 The Call to Pay Attention to Life
Here’s our source for this week:
Phenomenal Woman
Pretty women wonder where my secret lies.
I’m not cute or built to suit a fashion model’s size
But when I start to tell them,
They think I’m telling lies.
I say,
It’s in the reach of my arms,
The span of my hips,
The stride of my step,
The curl of my lips.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
I walk into a room
Just as cool as you please,
And to a man,
The fellows stand or
Fall down on their knees.
Then they swarm around me,
A hive of honey bees.
I say,
It’s the fire in my eyes,
And the flash of my teeth,
The swing in my waist,
And the joy in my feet.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
Men themselves have wondered
What they see in me.
They try so much
But they can’t touch
My inner mystery.
When I try to show them,
They say they still can’t see.
I say,
It’s in the arch of my back,
The sun of my smile,
The ride of my breasts,
The grace of my style.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
Now you understand
Just why my head’s not bowed.
I don’t shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud.
When you see me passing,
It ought to make you proud.
I say,
It’s in the click of my heels,
The bend of my hair,
the palm of my hand,
The need for my care.
’Cause I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
Maya Angelou
Photo by Chris on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from September 2025
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can register your interest for Season 1 of Turning Towards Life Live here.
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
phenomenal woman, inner mystery, self-making beings, authentic choices, conditioned narratives, cultural expectations, embodied identity, ancestral patterns, algorithmic conformity, gender stereotypes, truthful living, belonging to life, mysterious aliveness, elder wisdom, fierce invitation, active authorship, realness inquiry, powerful presence, liberation permission, identity deviation, life-giving stories, genuine aliveness, source of power, community belonging, truthful emergence

Jul 27, 2025 • 37min
407: Being the Soil for One Another
We are much more powerful than we often imagine, and in surprising ways. For most of us, our power is not in being remembered long beyond our lifetimes, or in being able to change the world that is far from us. It is rather in that we are each made by one another, and we make one another, by how we live, what we say, how we listen, and how we act.
When we start to see that we are literally making a world for others to live in right here and now, in our every way of conducting ourselves it can open great possibilities both for gratitude and wonder, and great responsibilities for us as parents, friends, colleagues and neighbours in our everyday lives.
In this conversation we remember Joanna Macy, whose writing we have featured a number of times, who died on July 19. And we talk together about what it is to be ‘good soil’ for one another, so that we get to make a world together that we want to live in.This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction and Context Setting
02:59 Nature as a Narrative for Human Life
05:59 Reflections on Mortality and Legacy
08:50 The Interconnectedness of Human Experience
11:54 Being Soil for One Another
14:49 Relationships and Community
18:07 Parenting and World Making
21:06 Cultural Narratives that Limit and Bring to Life
23:49 Conclusion
Here’s our source for this week:
In Honor of Joanna Macy, 1929-2025
I write while staying in one of the great forests of British Columbia, a forest in which the inextricability of life from death is gorgeously evident… Magnificent fallen trees turn back into soil as younger trees reach downward to twine around their ancestors' trunks and upward toward the sky. The roots growing around and gripping these decaying logs look like veins and tentacles and fingers clutching and reaching toward an anchor in the soil. Some of the mature cedars and conifers stand on mounds that must be fully decayed trees or rather once were trees and are further along in the process of becoming soil. Often a great tree that's fallen over still has at its base a tall shield that is its roots still clinging to rounded stones and soil, and from this the trunk stretches across the earth. These trees from which trees grow are known as nurse logs…
When I was younger, I was taught what an artist or writer was supposed to aspire to was immortality, the kind that Dante and Li Po and Shakespeare have, so that in centuries to come memory of your name and attention to your creations continue. Later in life, I realized that there was an entirely different thing to aspire to, an entirely different kind of creative success: to be so much part of your own time, of the present that is making the future, that rather than remaining what people think about, you become in some way how people think, how they value, what they prioritize. You stop being what's in front of their eyes and become part of what is behind their eyes, how they see the world, how they live, act, what they aspire to, what they hold close, what they resist.
You become a nurse log on which new life can grow as you compost into the soil we call culture. And maybe this is the mindset of moist places, of an ecology of vivid decay and regeneration rather than of the arid places, where death dessicates and the mummies, skeletons, ruins, Dead Sea Scrolls, last for centuries or millennia.
Rebecca Solnit, writing in memory of Joanna Macy 1929-2025
From ‘Meditations in an Emergency’, Rebecca’s ongoing public writing for these times
Photo by Tomas Martinez on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from September 2025
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can register your interest for Season 1 of Turning Towards Life Live here.
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
nurse logs, creative success, soil culture, interpenetrating lives, mortality meaning, forest metaphor, humility humus, world making, parenting soil, cultural foundation, death regeneration, collective memory, individual legacy, spiritual ecology, creative immortality, ancestral roots, living decay, fertile ground, cultural inheritance, generational impact, everyday power, relationship making, invisible influence, natural cycles, human connection

Jul 20, 2025 • 37min
406: The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up
Explore the transformative journey of self-awareness through the Enneagram, a tool that helps uncover blind spots in our personalities. The hosts share personal stories, highlighting the power of recognizing patterns that can hinder growth. Discover how embracing our shadows can lead to deeper connections and authenticity. Insights into human nature and the quest for inner treasures reveal the gifts we often overlook. This conversation invites listeners to wake up from their 'zombie' states and live more consciously.

Jul 13, 2025 • 38min
405: Facing our Fear and Becoming Ordinary
Dive into a heartfelt exploration of aging, illness, and mortality. Discover how embracing our fears can transform them into empowering allies. The speakers reflect on the shared human experience, urging us to connect deeply and authentically with one another. Engaging with profound questions, they emphasize the importance of meaningful conversations and community connection. By acknowledging our vulnerabilities, we can cultivate compassion, making every moment of being alive resonate with realness and aliveness.

Jul 6, 2025 • 32min
404: The Feeling Beneath the Feeling
Our immediate emotions about an event or happening usually sit on top of deeper currents of meaning, story, longing and commitments that may at first be obscured from view. If we want to become ever more active and intentional participants in our lives and relationships, there's much to be said then for first coming to know the emotion and then beginning to notice the commitments which lie underneath. This way we give ourselves an opportunity to cultivate something over time - a purposeful way of knowing ourselves and using that knowledge for the very practical purpose of being the person we each want to be. How might we begin to approach this inquiry and the new kinds of action that come from it?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:51 Exploring Emotions vs. Feelings
05:58 The Complexity of Human Experience
08:50 The Role of Reflection in Understanding
11:56 Parenting and Emotional Awareness
15:08 The Importance of Feeling in Relationships
18:02 Navigating Emotions and Feelings
20:45 The Journey of Self-Discovery
24:04 Honoring Influential Voices
30:05 Conclusion and Reflections
Here’s our source for this week:
The Feeling Beneath the Feeling
"What was my feeling in that situation — not my emotions, my feeling? My emotions may support my feeling, but emotions are affective responses determined by complexes, momentary reactions to an immediate situation. Feeling, on the other hand, evaluates what something is worth to me."
Marion Woodman
Photo by Ismael Paramo on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from September 2025
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can register your interest for Season 1 of Turning Towards Life Live here.
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
feeling versus emotion, emotional complexity, beneath the beneath, reflective living, what matters deeply, belonging longing, momentary reactions, personal complexes, evaluating worth, emotional flooding, parenting emotions, feeling towards, working with feelings, emotional skillfulness, writing practice, conversation practice, underneath layers, fear and anger, grief processing, lifelong inquiry, emotional courage, welcoming feelings, feeling fully, emotional determination, reactive responses, deep currents

Jun 30, 2025 • 30min
403: On Gratitude
Can we practice a fierce, truthful loving form of gratitude for life itself that calls us until our care for the world in practical, tangible ways? How is this different from shallow or 'pop-culture' versions of gratitude that might have us tune out from our pain and the difficulties around us? How might the deepest kind of gratitude connect us to the source from which all life comes, and the incredible unlikeliness of our being here, and so fuel our own aliveness? And how might attending to small things - the computer screen in front of us, a cup of tea, the cat - be a pathway in?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to Turning Towards Life Live
03:05 Exploring Gratitude as a Mood
05:44 The Depth of Gratitude and Taking Action
09:04 The Interconnectedness of Life and Gratitude
12:00 The Power of Small Things in Building Gratitude
14:44 The Role of Community in Changing Things
18:00 Gratitude Beyond Circumstances
20:55 The Miracle of Existence
23:58 Finding Wholeness in Small Moments
26:48 Conclusion and Reflection
Here’s our source for this week:
On Gratitude
Just to live is holy
To be is a blessing
-- Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel
We have received an inestimable gift. To be alive in this beautiful, self-organising universe - to participate in the dance of life with senses to perceive it, lungs that breathe it, organs that draw nourishment from it - is a wonder beyond words.
Gratitude quiets the frantic mind and brings us back to source. It reconnects us with basic goodness and our personal power. It helps us to be more fully present to our world. That grounded present provides the psychic space for acknowledging the pain we carry for our world...
We begin to know the immensity of our heart-mind, and how it helps us move beyond fear... The truth of our inter-existence, made real to us by our pain for the world, helps us see with new eyes. It brings fresh understandings of who we are and how we are related to each other and the universe. We begin to comprehend our own power to change and heal. We strengthen by growing living connections with past and future generations, and our brother and sister species.
Then, ever again, we go forth into the action that calls us... Even when we don’t succeed in a given venture, we can be grateful for the chance we took and the lessons we learned. And the spiral begins again.
Joanna Macy, from ‘World as Lover, World As Self’
Photo by Balazs Busznyak on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from September 2025
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can register your interest for Season 1 of Turning Towards Life Live here.
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife

Jun 22, 2025 • 34min
402: What If I Told You
This week we explore the tension between bringing our wholeness to the world and the social pressure to maintain polished appearances. How might we practise opening our hearts to the whole of ourselves—including the uncomfortable, needy, and difficult parts?
Moving from performing acceptability to becoming spaces where others can feel genuinely welcomed means cultivating the capacity to ask "what else is here?" with genuine curiosity. And this becomes the foundation for encountering our own and others' grief, rage, and vulnerability without turning away. It’s our sense that this is an ethical imperative—the gift we offer those who come after us and those we meet along the way.
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction and Context of the Conversation
01:56 The Power of Authenticity in Relationships
07:04 Exploring the Poem: 'What If I Told You'
08:52 Embracing Messiness as Generosity
12:56 The Importance of Self-Reflection
20:42 Navigating Relationships with Authenticity
28:55 The Ethical Imperative of Being Real
31:48 Conclusion and Future Directions
Here’s our source for this week:
What if I told you
What if I told you
That showing up
In this messy world
Just as you are
Is the ultimate act of love.
That befriending your doubts,
Opening your heart to
The whole of you,
Is the greatest act of generosity.
That loving yourself
In the places that are the hardest to love
Is the most profound gift
You can give
To those who come after you,
To those who meet you,
To those who rest in your eyes for a moment,
As you move through the world
As an invitation
And a welcome for
Everyone's messy beauty.
What if I told you,
We need you
Just
As
You
Are.
Hollie Holden
Photo by Talia Cohen on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from September 2025
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can register your interest for Season 1 of Turning Towards Life Live here.
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife