

Turning Towards Life - a Thirdspace podcast
Thirdspace
Join Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise from Thirdspace for weekly conversations that ask how we might bring ourselves to life with as much courage and wisdom as we can. We start each episode with inspiring sources and then dive deep together into the questions and possibilities they open up. Find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, YouTube and FaceBook, at www.turningtowards.life and at www.wearethirdspace.org
Episodes
Mentioned books

Oct 5, 2025 • 39min
417: It's Never Too Late, our 8th Anniversary Episode
It's never too late to look at our lives, to set out on a new path, to begin the difficult and necessary and life-giving work of changing course, of learning how to bring ourselves in a way that deepens our depth, courage, love, kindness, truthfulness and contribution. It's never too late to learn something, to teach something. It's never too late to live - even in the very last moments of our lives. This conversation, marking the 8th anniversary of Turning Towards Life, takes us into an exploration of who we humans can be to one another, especially when we pay attention, when we remember our capacities to make worlds together, and when we commit to listen to one another with kindness, truthfulness, openness and care.
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Celebrating Eight Years of Turning Towards Life
05:48 Introducing the Source: Harold Schulweis
11:57 Personal Reflections on Change and Growth
17:47 The Power of Openness and Change
24:08 The Importance of Dialogue and Disagreement
29:52 Creating a World of Connection and Kindness
Here’s our source for this week:
It’s never too late
The last word has not been spoken
the last sentence has not been writ
the final verdict is not in.
It's never too late
to change my mind
my direction
to say 'no' to the past
and 'yes' to the future
to offer remorse
to ask and give forgiveness.
It is never too late
to start all over again
to feel again
to love again
to hope again.
It is never too late
to overcome despair
to turn sorrow into resolve
and pain into purpose.
It is never too late to alter my world
not by magic incantations
or manipulations of the cards
or deciphering the stars
but by opening myself
to curative forces buried within
to hidden energies
the powers in my interior self.
In sickness and in dying,
it is never too late.
Living, I teach
Dying, I teach
how to face pain and fear.
Others observe me, children, adults,
students of life and death
learn from my bearing, my posture,
my philosophy.
It is never too late -
Some word of mine,
some touch, some caress may be remembered
some gesture may play a role beyond the last
movement of my head and hand.
Write it on my epitaph
that my loved ones be consoled.
It is never too late.
Harold Shulweis
Photo by Ümit Bulut on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2026
Foundations of Coaching, Feb 9-10 2026, Online
Our two day introduction to the deep and wonderful way of working with people that we call 'Integral Development Coaching'.
www.wearethirdspace.org/foundations-of-coaching
Turning Towards Life Live Season 2, from March 2026
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons, in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
People Mentioned:
Rabbi Harold Shulweis
David Whyte
Rainer Maria Rilke
Norman Fisher
Mary Oliver
Maya Stein
Rosemary Whatola-Trommer
Hollie Holden
Naomi Shihab Nye
Rebecca Solnit
Leo Tolstoy (author of The Death of Ivan Ilyich)
Keywords:
never late, starting over, forgiveness practice, teaching presence, continuous becoming, habit remaking, interior forces, curative powers, death teaching, final verdict, life ongoingness, changing direction, opening myself, human power, world making, truthful standing, cynicism rejection, spiritual openness, destination pressure, community presence, disagreement kindness, intentional space, learning together, transformative choice, last breath

Sep 28, 2025 • 22min
416: Questions for Discerning What is Timeless and True
A conversation about discovering that the entire world around us—the first star breaking through darkness, rain dancing on rooftops, stooping to pick up an acorn—aren't distractions from life's important questions but invitations further into them. That we are never separate from the world, and that there are many ways in which the world is calling to us even when we feel alone. And that rather than retreating from the world to find the answers to our most urgent questions, perhaps we can soften back into contact with what surrounds us as a way into the answers.
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:25 Exploring Ingrid's Poetry
06:30 On Ordinary Moments
10:07 Connection to the World Around Us
14:34 Receiving from the World, Finding We Are Not Alone
19:24 Discovering our Non-Separateness
Here’s our source for this week:
Questions for Discerning
What is Timeless and True
When mist settles thick on the water
as far as the eye can see,
may you hold yourself in generosity,
and ask what do you endlessly dream?
When the first star breaks its light
through the darkest evening sky,
what is the wish that flutters
in the temple of your heart?
When rain dances with joy
on the roof above your head,
what do you feel most grateful for,
and for what do you give thanks?
When the catbird settles on a branch nearby,
tips his head back and sings,
what sweet urgency pours from your life
into the living, breathing day?
When you stoop to pick up an acorn
that has fallen along your trail,
allow yourself to wonder:
what seeds do you plant and grow?
When the autumn leaf lifts
on a swirling current of wind:
what journey are you missing?
What adventure do you long to begin?
When the present insight slips
into the vast eternal realm,
what do you still remember
in the very bones of your soul?
When the morning sun wakes you
and asks for your finest gift,
what do you pull from your infinity
to give and give, and open to, and give?
Ingrid Goff-Maidoff
ingridgoffmaidoff.com
Photo by Lucas van Oort on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2026
Turning Towards Life Live Season 2, from March 2026
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons, in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords:
timeless questions, sweet urgency, temple heart, infinity giving, autumn leaf journey, catbird settling, acorn wondering, star breaking light, rain dancing joy, mist settling thick, bones soul memory, morning sun gift, world offering attention, contact receptivity, contracted separation, life calling back, rose smelling presence, ordinary invitations, belonging planet, softening contact, generous participation, separateness fear, social media hysteria, retreat fantasy, bodily contraction, woods walking

Sep 21, 2025 • 30min
415: Treasured? Measured?
'For the sake of what am I doing this?' is the question that animates this week's conversation. For the sake of fitting in? Of having feelings that I want to have? For the sake of serving? Of bringing the unique gifts I have to offer? For the sake of doing the big jobs, the ones that make a difference over the long term - such as pursuing love, justice, peace? Rather than pursuing quick wins that shrink our ambitions, might we find courage to take on impossible jobs and measure our lives not by immediate results but by unwavering dedication to the particular gifts that each of us has to bring?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction and Welcome
04:14 Introducing Parker Palmer and this week’s Source
08:52 The Concept of Faithfulness vs. Effectiveness
15:42 The Challenge of Complex Issues in Life
22:33 Finding Fulfillment Beyond Short-Term Goals
Here’s our source for this week:
Faithfulness and Effectiveness
Take on big jobs worth doing, jobs like the spread of love, peace, and justice. That means refusing to be seduced by our cultural obsession with being effective as measured by short-term results. …
Our heroes take on impossible jobs and stay with them for the long haul because they live by a standard that supersedes effectiveness. The name of that standard is "faithfulness" - faithfulness to your gifts, to the needs of the world, and to offering
your gifs to whatever needs are within your reach.
The tighter we cling to the norm of effectiveness, the smaller the tasks we'll take on, because they are the only ones that get short-term results. Public education is a tragic example. We no longer care about educating children - a big job that's never done. We care only about getting kids to pass tests with measurable results, whether or not those tests measure what matters. In the process, we're crushing the spirits of a lot of good teachers and vulnerable kids: there are millions of kids in this country who long to be treasured, not measured.
Care about being effective, of course. But care even more about being faithful, as countless teachers do - faithful to your calling and to the true needs of those entrusted to your care. You won't get the big jobs done in your lifetime. But if, at the end of the road, you can say, "I was faithful", you can check out with a sense of satisfaction.
Parker Palmer,
from "On the Brink of Everything", p47-48
Photo by Alexey Demidov on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2026
Turning Towards Life Live Season 2, from March 2026
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons, in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords:
faithfulness practice, effectiveness obsession, long-term commitment, cultural critique, big jobs worth doing, short-term results, treasured not measured, educational reform, calling dedication, gift recognition, world needs, satisfaction fulfillment, loyalty examination, complex missions, unfinished work, life dedication, cultural metanarratives, social exclusion fear, heart questioning, purpose alignment, decision making clarity, service orientation, love peace justice, parenting faithfulness, recognition limitations, life filling, tribe dedication, spiritual satisfaction, deeper commitment, relationship building, podcast longevity

Sep 14, 2025 • 35min
414: Standing at a New Doorway
We are far from powerless… though we often we imagine we are. And neither are we able to control how life goes… though we often long to be able to. Our making ourselves too small or too big rarely serves life. So what would it be to find a way to be in a responsive partnership with life itself - acting into life and then opening ourselves to life’s response, bringing the qualities we have to offer as humans and letting ourselves be changed by what comes?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Welcome and Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:50 The Emergence of a Collective Self
06:07 Exploring Uncertainty and Aliveness
09:05 Navigating the Unknown: Embracing Change
11:50 The Dance of Certainty and Uncertainty
15:07 Partnership with Life: Making Our Moves
17:50 The Nature of Human Qualities in Crisis
20:57 Reflective Practice and Self-Discovery
24:00 Being Human in Uncertainty
26:49 Closing Reflections and Gratitude
Here’s our source for this week:
We look with uncertainty
We look with uncertainty
beyond the old choices for
clear-cut answers
to a softer, more permeable aliveness
which is every moment
at the brink of death;
for something new is being born in us
if we but let it.
We stand at a new doorway,
awaiting that which comes…
daring to be human creatures,
vulnerable to the beauty of existence.
Learning to love.
Anne Hillman
Photo by Karissa Mason on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2026
Turning Towards Life Live Season 2, from March 2026
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons, in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords:
uncertainty acceptance, essential qualities, human aliveness, partnership with life, permeable existence, doorway metaphor, vulnerable beauty, reflective practice, present moment awareness, control letting go, death brink living, softness cultivation, new birth allowing, offering making, response receiving, qualities emerging, steadfastness courage, generous heart, human goodness, unpredictability embracing, participation dance, life partnership, essential self, turning towards life, relationship reflection

Sep 7, 2025 • 29min
413: Imagination and the Marvellous Error
A conversation about imagination as essential aliveness—and how treating life as purely literal diminishes our humanity. A great human power lies in choosing which story we live from, recognising that even dead ends become part of a larger narrative of redemption. What would change if we approached each day wondering along which secret aqueduct new life might be flowing toward us?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Embracing Life's Multitudes
02:56 Gathering in Community
05:50 Machado’s Poem Last Night as I Was Sleeping
08:58 Imagining New Possibilities
11:59 Turning Towards Joy and Failure
14:53 The Imaginative Act of Being Human
17:47 Finding Connection in Shared Experiences
20:50 The Invitation to Storytelling
23:45 Practicing Presence and Openness
Here’s our source for this week:
Last night, as I was sleeping
Last night, as I was sleeping,
I dreamt -- marvellous error!—
that a spring was breaking
out in my heart.
I said: Along which secret aqueduct,
Oh water, are you coming to me,
water of a new life
that I have never drunk?
Last night, as I was sleeping,
I dreamt -- marvellous error!—
that I had a beehive
here inside my heart.
And the golden bees
were making white combs
and sweet honey
from my old failures.
Last night, as I was sleeping,
I dreamt -- marvellous error!—
that a fiery sun was giving
light inside my heart.
It was fiery because I felt
warmth as from a hearth,
and sun because it gave light
and brought tears to my eyes.
Last night, as I slept,
I dreamt -- marvellous error!—
that it was God I had
here inside my heart.
Antonio Machado
English version by Robert Bly
Original Language Spanish
Photo by Vivek Doshi on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from 10 September 2025
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords:
marvellous error, secret aqueduct, golden bees, sweet honey, old failures, imaginative capacity, turning towards life, heart opening, sacred aliveness, storytelling power, redemption possibility, fiery warmth, divine presence, new life water, creative interpretation, dream consciousness, life-giving conversation, spiritual recognition, meaning making, transformation language, wonder invitation, possibility thinking, cynicism rejection, literal thinking, narrative choice
People Mentioned:
Antonio Machado (Spanish poet, author of the poem)
Robert Bly (translator of the poem)
Roger Housden (author of "Ten Poems to Change Your Life")
Rosemerry Wahtola Trommer (podcast host of "Emerging Form")
Christie Aschwanden (podcast host of "Emerging Form")
Emerging Form Episode 146, Maria Kelson on Switching Genres
https://emergingform.substack.com/p/episode-146-maria-kelson-on-switching

Aug 31, 2025 • 35min
412: Gravity, Light and Belonging
We spend so much energy trying to think our way to insight, yet a fuller understanding of our lives often arrives from somewhere beyond the usual way we know ourselves. When our hands are busy with ordinary tasks something vast can sometimes settle into awareness. What happens when we discover that our bodies know a kinship with the earth our minds may have forgotten? Could belonging be less about finding our place and more about recognising we never left it?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to Turning Towards Life
03:03 Exploring the Source: Of Gravity and Light
05:43 The Significance of Menial Tasks
08:47 The Relationship Between Thinking and Receiving
11:45 Belonging and Recognition
14:43 Connection and Community
17:44 The Mystery of Existence and Our Place in It
20:59 The Importance of Acknowledging Our Already Existing Ways of Belonging
23:43 Creating a Sense of Belonging in the World
26:55 Conclusion and Invitations
Here’s our source for this week:
Of Gravity and Light
What we need most, we learn from the menial tasks:
the novice raking sand in Buddhist texts,
or sweeping leaves, his hands chilled to the bone,
while understanding hovers out of reach;
the changeling in a folk tale, chopping logs,
poised at the dizzy edge of transformation;
and everything they do is gravity:
swaying above the darkness of the well
to haul the bucket in; guiding the broom;
finding the body’s kinship with the earth
beneath their feet, the lattice of a world
where nothing turns or stands outside the whole;
and when the insight comes, they carry on
with what’s at hand: the gravel path; the fire;
knowing the soul is no more difficult
than water, or the fig tree by the well
that stood for decades, barren and inert,
till every branch was answered in the stars.
John Burnside
Photo by Merri J on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from 10 September 2025
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
menial tasks, ordinary moments, body kinship, earth connection, belonging fully, inner mystery, thinking patterns, gravity metaphor, physical presence, everyday insights, transformation edge, soul simplicity, cultural belonging, human mystery, inclusion practice, overthinking habits, fearful analysis, mindful walking, dish washing, leaf sweeping, grounded presence, mysterious depths, embodied wisdom, life belonging, earthly home
People Mentioned
John Burnside - The poet whose work "Of Gravity and Light" is discussed throughout the episode

Aug 24, 2025 • 40min
411: You Get Good at What You Do
What if we recognised that every single thing we do - and everything we avoid doing - is quietly shaping us into the kind of person we're becoming? A conversation about discovering that we're already practising something all the time, whether we realise it or not, and that our choices about where to place our attention might be more consequential than we imagine. What would it mean to get good at the things that truly matter to us, or to surprise and widen ourselves by practicing new things that are outside of our familiar, comfortable range?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Welcome and Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:21 The Importance of Time and Choices
05:37 Practicing What Matters: Insights from Chloe Caldwell
10:08 The Impact of Our Practices on Our Lives
15:07 Awareness of Time and Intentions
19:09 The Role of Social Media in Shaping Us
24:28 Exploring New Practices and Joyful Experimentation
32:32 The Value of External Perspectives on Our Practices
38:01 Conclusion and Reflection on Our Practices
Here’s our source for this week:
You Get Good at What You Do
My dad passed away last December, and he was in the top three closest people to me over my life. He used to have a phrase he used with his guitar students: “You get good at what you do. If you practice guitar, you get really good at guitar. If you don’t practice, you get really good at not practicing.”
I love this phrase because you can apply it to every single thing in life, in ways both literal and abstract. If you write, you get good at writing If you look at Instagram, you get good at looking at Instagram. If you walk, you get good at walking. If you swim, you get good at swimming. If you write, you get good at writing. If you don’t write, you get really good at not writing. If you look at Instagram, you get REALLY good at looking at Instagram.
I think my dad’s lesson seeped into my brain from hearing him say it so much. It wasn’t advice as much as a notion. Now I pass it along to my students and think about it once a day. It seems simple and like something we all know, logically, but the way it is phrased really drives it home.
When he died, one of his guitar students wrote, “Rob was good at love and music. It’s what he did.”
Chloé Caldwell
via Cheryl Strayed’s Substack
Photo by Majkl Velner on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from 10 September 2025
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice.
You can find out more and join us here: www.turningtowards.life/live
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
practising consciousness, attention choices, time dedication, intentional living, habit formation, social media impact, parenting practices, body movement, dance therapy, five rhythms, creative experimentation, relationship awareness, coaching practice, value alignment, present moment, death awareness, guitar teaching, love practice, Instagram scrolling, screen time, movement practice, flexible being, meeting world, self observation, community feedback, practice visibility, tender awareness, blind spots, coaching skills, professional development, turning towards life
People Mentioned
Cheryl Strayed
Chloé Caldwell
The Rock (Dwayne Johnson)

Aug 17, 2025 • 36min
410: The Singing Bird
How do we attend to the something in each of us that longs to break free through the cracks of our self-image? A conversation about discovering that sacred uniqueness within ourselves and others in the everyday mundane acts of living, loving, working and being genuinely present with one another.
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to Turning Towards Life
02:50 The Singing Bird: A Poetic Exploration
06:03 Longing and Creativity: Uncovering the Singing Bird
08:57 The Unique Expression of Each Of Us
12:00 Navigating Self-Criticism and Inquiry
14:50 Vulnerability and Authenticity in Relationships
18:07 Embracing the Messiness of Life
21:08 The Complexity of Human Experience
23:56 The Interconnectedness of Our Stories
26:50 The Importance of Community and Conversation
30:02 Conclusion and Looking Ahead
Here’s our source for this week:
The Singing Bird
The singing bird
I have a hundred ways
Of keeping the singing bird
Pushed down,
Hidden,
Anaesthetised,
Comfort-numb,
Silenced.
But I have learned
How easily she
Can break free
And Sing Anyway.
She sneaks out
Through the cracks
That get made
By laughter
And poetry
And art
And honesty
And dancing
And sunshine.
I wonder if you know
The ways you keep the singing bird
Quiet?
And if you know how to forget yourself
So that she can sneak out
And remind you of the song
You’ve always wanted to sing.
Hollie Holden
Photo by Lukáš Kadava on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from 17 September 2025
Our Turning Towards Life live programme of community, learning and reflection runs in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can find out more and join us here.
----
About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Amazon Music and Spotify.
Join Our Weekly Mailing: www.turningtowards.life/subscribe
Support Us: www.buymeacoffee.com/turningtowardslife
Keywords
singing bird, creative expression, authentic presence, vulnerability sharing, sacred uniqueness, forget yourself, honest presence, creative practice, inner critic, right sizing, vast universe, cultural expectations, sacred something, judgement softening, unfolding process, kerfuffle acceptance, contactful being, depth confidence, whoness discovery, messy glory, genuine presence, practical spirituality, learning process, turning towards life, creative longing, existential wondering
People Mentioned
Hollie Holden (author of this week's source)

Aug 10, 2025 • 33min
409: A Falcon, a Storm, or a Great Song?
The hosts delve into how our identities are shaped by the stories we tell ourselves and explore the freedom found in embracing uncertainty. They reflect on Rilke's poetry and the idea of living in 'widening circles,' inviting listeners to reconsider what it means to be human. Discussions about vulnerability highlight the beauty of personal growth and deep connections, emphasizing the importance of community in navigating life’s complexities. Ultimately, the conversation celebrates the mystery of existence and the transformative power of self-discovery.

Aug 8, 2025 • 34min
408: Phenomenal Woman
What happens when we choose to actively shape our own identity rather than only accept the stories handed down to us? How might we practice distinguishing between what belongs to us and what we've been told we should be? What becomes possible when we see ourselves as authors of our own ways of being in life?
This week’s conversation is hosted, as always, by Lizzie Winn and Justin Wise of Thirdspace.
Episode Overview
00:00 Introduction to the Conversation
03:18 Reading Maya Angelou's 'Phenomenal Woman'
08:01 Exploring Identity
11:07 The Invitation of Authenticity
16:03 Rejecting the Algorithm: Embracing Authorship
21:16 The Inquiry into Who We Might Be
26:25 Finding Belonging in Authenticity
30:01 The Call to Pay Attention to Life
Here’s our source for this week:
Phenomenal Woman
Pretty women wonder where my secret lies.
I’m not cute or built to suit a fashion model’s size
But when I start to tell them,
They think I’m telling lies.
I say,
It’s in the reach of my arms,
The span of my hips,
The stride of my step,
The curl of my lips.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
I walk into a room
Just as cool as you please,
And to a man,
The fellows stand or
Fall down on their knees.
Then they swarm around me,
A hive of honey bees.
I say,
It’s the fire in my eyes,
And the flash of my teeth,
The swing in my waist,
And the joy in my feet.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
Men themselves have wondered
What they see in me.
They try so much
But they can’t touch
My inner mystery.
When I try to show them,
They say they still can’t see.
I say,
It’s in the arch of my back,
The sun of my smile,
The ride of my breasts,
The grace of my style.
I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
Now you understand
Just why my head’s not bowed.
I don’t shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud.
When you see me passing,
It ought to make you proud.
I say,
It’s in the click of my heels,
The bend of my hair,
the palm of my hand,
The need for my care.
’Cause I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
Maya Angelou
Photo by Chris on Unsplash
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Join Us Live in 2025
Turning Towards Life Live Season 1, from September 2025
We also have the launch of our Turning Towards Life live programme which is going to run in six month seasons from September. It's going to be in person on Zoom once a month. We're very excited about it. A chance to expand beyond the bounds of a podcast into forming a community of learning and practice. You can register your interest for Season 1 of Turning Towards Life Live here.
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About Turning Towards Life
Turning Towards Life, a week-by-week conversation inviting us deeply into our lives, is a live 30 minute conversation hosted by Justin Wise and Lizzie Winn of Thirdspace. Find us on FaceBook to watch live and join in the lively conversation on this episode. You can find videos of every episode, and more about the project on the Turning Towards Life website, and you can also watch and listen on Instagram, YouTube, and as a podcast on Apple, Google, Amazon Music and Spotify.
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Keywords
phenomenal woman, inner mystery, self-making beings, authentic choices, conditioned narratives, cultural expectations, embodied identity, ancestral patterns, algorithmic conformity, gender stereotypes, truthful living, belonging to life, mysterious aliveness, elder wisdom, fierce invitation, active authorship, realness inquiry, powerful presence, liberation permission, identity deviation, life-giving stories, genuine aliveness, source of power, community belonging, truthful emergence