The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] Why Are Men and Viking Grandmas
It's time for the May Indulgence Gospel! Instead of answering your questions this month, we're reading Virginia's hate mail. Buckle up!
If you are already a paid subscriber, you’ll have this entire episode in your podcast feed and access to the entire transcript in your inbox and on the Burnt Toast Patreon.
If you are not a paid subscriber, you'll only get the first chunk. To hear the whole conversation or read the whole transcript, you'll need to go paid.
Also, don't forget to order Fat Talk: Parenting In the Age of Diet Culture! Get your signed copy now from Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the USA). You can also order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, Kobo or anywhere you like to buy books. (Or get the UK edition or the audiobook!)
Disclaimer: Virginia and Corinne are humans with a lot of informed opinions. They are not nutritionists, therapists, doctosr, or any kind of health care providers. The conversation you're about to hear and all of the advice and opinions they give are just for entertainment, information, and education purposes only. None of this is a substitute for individual medical or mental health advice.
BUTTER & BOOKS
_____ Is a Breakfast Food by Marjory Sweet
The Unhoneymooners by Christina Lauren
The Ex Talk by Rachel Lynn Solomon
Sabrina Strings’ Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia
Da’Shaun Harrison Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blackness
chapter one of FAT TALK
Order any of these from the Burnt Toast Bookshop for 10 percent off if you also order (or have already ordered!) Fat Talk! (Just use the code FATTALK at checkout.)
OTHER LINKS
The Cut did a profile
yes, fat marathon runners
very popular article in The Atlantic about how eating ice cream is associated with lower rates of Type Two Diabetes
a tweet about Elizabeth Warren
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith. Follow Virginia on Instagram or Twitter. Burnt Toast transcripts and essays are edited and formatted by Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing. The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe. Our theme music is by Jeff Bailey and Chris Maxwell. Tommy Harron is our audio engineer. Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!
Virginia
You’re listening to Burnt Toast! This is the podcast about diet culture, fatphobia, parenting, and health. I’m Virginia Sole-Smith. I also write the Burnt Toast newsletter.
Corinne
And I’m Corinne Fay. I work on Burnt Toast and run @SellTradePlus an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus sized clothing.
Virginia
And it’s time for your May mailbag episode! But instead of answering your questions this month, I decided it would be fun—cathartic? something?—to open my other mailbag, which is the place in my computer and in my DMs where the trolls live.
Corinne
Yes, you’ve been getting a lot of this lately.
Virginia
It started when The Cut did a profile on me, right before the book launch. There were a lot of feelings about orange crackers. Which I feel like we have spoken to?
Corinne
You addressed it very directly on TikTok.
Virginia
Then after the Fresh Air interview came out, and the book launched, it’s just been a lot of people in their feelings.
Corinne
You made it to Fox News.1
Virginia
I did. I did make it to Fox News. I always knew I could do it.
Corinne
I didn’t realize that that was a thing, that they’ll be like, “Oh, something that was on Fresh Air. Let’s twist this into something that will make our audience mad.”
Virginia
No spoilers, Corinne! Because we’re gonna get into just how mad they got. I should say, Corinne hasn’t read most of these. I’m making her come in cold because I’m a little numb to it all at this point.
Corinne
I’ll be reacting in real time.
Virginia
I felt like we needed some human reaction. I also want to say: In choosing what messages to talk about in this episode, I was mostly looking for the it’s-so-bad-it’s-funny comments, the orange snack cracker type of thing. But I do also want to get into some of the repeat themes that come up that I think are super troubling in this conversation. We are going to read some fairly disturbing emails. Content warning for anti-fatness, misogyny, every other kind of bias you can think of, white supremacy. It’s going to be a wild ride. Take care of yourself if that’s not something you want to listen to.
Corinne
Make sense. This is also a paywalled episode. That means to hear the whole thing, you’ll need to be a paid Burnt Toast subscriber. It’s just $5 per month or $50 for the year.
Virginia
All right, before we dive in, Corinne, how are you doing? What is new with you?
Corinne
I’m doing good. It’s starting to get a touch hot here, so I’m feeling a little bit of dread.
Virginia
Is it time to get out the face shield?
Corinne
I’ve been wondering if we were going to talk about that sun visor again. Why don’t I just admit now, that it did not get a lot of wear.
Virginia
But it seemed so great!
Corinne
The thing is, I wear glasses and it’s really hard to wear with glasses.
Virginia
Yeah, that does feel like a big design flaw.
Corinne
I need a sun visor in prescription glasses.
Virginia
Imagine if your whole face was your prescription.
Corinne
Yes, exactly. What I ended up doing instead was just buying prescription sunglasses, which was great.
Virginia
It does feel like that plus a hat does achieve a lot of the same goals as the sun face shield.
Corinne
I no longer need a face shield because I have prescription sunglasses.
Virginia
All right. Well, it is an official Butter recommendation so we should probably go back and add a footnote. But if you don’t wear glasses, it might be amazing for you?
Corinne
Totally. Or maybe if you have less chunky glasses? What’s new with you? Besides.
Virginia
Besides the trolls? Things are good. It’s garden season. I am excited about that. It’s been very nice to have that safe space to be in when my introvert self—and I want to be clear, this is just like how I would respond as an introvert to any amount of… There’s a lot of output with this season. Before we even get into the trolls. So it’s good. We had a lot of shrubs not survive the drought last year, which I’m sad about. But I’m also like, it’s a reason to buy a new plant.
Corinne
You’ve got to treat yourself.
Virginia
I’m mourning but I’m moving on. Okay, should we dive in? Should we do our first letter?
Corinne
I think we should.
Virginia
Okay. This is from Lou. This is the kind of email I like to file under “Men Who Listen to Podcasts and Send Me Thoughts.” So Corinne, I will have you read this.
Corinne
Hello Virginia,
I was just listening to your podcast on NPR and I have to say it's been scientifically proven that being obese is an health issue, that goes for children and adults! I disagree that it's a body image problem. It's costing the health care system millions of dollars! Your information is misleading and harmful to say it's not an issue! Please do your due diligence and research the health effects rather than dismissing it as an image problem and chastising the medical community for addressing the issue. These obese, people, Lizzo for example, promote that fact it's ok, now you're writing books not addressing the issue. If you thought it was ok next time you go to the doctors get on the scale! The fact you don't reiterates what I'm saying and does not go along with what you're saying.. This problem all started when junk food and fast food came along - look back to old photos even the eighties - people were not obese - this is insane what's going on!
Virginia
Lou has a lot of thoughts. Lou also uses a lot of exclamation points. And has very creative comma use.
Corinne
Creative comma use for sure. My first thought is: Did Loui listen to the interview or did Lou read the title and react immediately?
Virginia
This is a common theme of Internet trolls.
Corinne
Would you say that the point of your book is that there’s a body image issue?
Virginia
No. I would not say that.
Corinne
I would not say that either.
Virginia
That’s not how I would characterize my work, no. We’re talking about systemic bias and how it harms people, including their physical health.
I’m always sad when they bring Lizzo into it. Can we just leave Lizzo alone?
Corinne
Poor Lizzo.
Virginia
She doesn’t need this. She didn’t ask for it. You’re mad at me, Lou, not at Lizzo. So yes, this is very much a greatest hits troll playlist. Like, “It’s been scientifically proven with,” but he doesn’t link to any research or supporting evidence. He’s not looking at the data. "It’s costing the healthcare system millions of dollars.” There’s so many people who have put in thousands of hours of work unpacking these premises.
has devoted decades of her life to this. And then, "please do your research." That's one of my favorite things because I do research this? For a living?
Corinne
You think they just let Virginia write a book without doing any research?
Virginia
They came up to me on the street. It was the wildest thing.
Corinne
You sent them an email and said, “We have a body image problem. Can I write a book?”
Virginia
This is not specific to just Lou. One guy sent me link after link after link and they were all fitness guru podcast episodes. I understand I am just a woman who researches this professionally and has written about these issues for decades, and you are a man who listens to podcasts. But it still does not mean you have to send me personal emails about it.
Corinne
There’s also not a lot here, besides ranting.
Virginia
Yeah, ranting and claiming that I don’t have any facts on my side while they have all the facts but they never actually use facts.
The thing that really gets to me is how men write these emails where it’s like “You are wrong. Let me tell you how you are wrong. Please do your research,” and I’m just like, well I have 50 pages of footnotes, Lou. Do you?
Corinne
YOU please do your research. You please do YOUR research.
Virginia
Here’s another fun one from a man. This guy wrote:
In response to your grifting nonsense I would usually say hush! back into the kitchen with you and make me a sandwich—
Corinne
Oh no.
Virginia
but, sadly, we all know how that would end.
Corinne
How…how… how would that end?
Virginia
I can only assume he thinks it would end in me eating the sandwich and getting fatter and him having no sandwich?
Corinne
Wow, what a burn.
Virginia
Or I would be putting glass in his sandwich? I don’t know, there are a lot of options.
Corinne
That is just so obnoxious.
Virginia
Obnoxious is the theme of today.
Alright, this one I pulled from the comment section on The Cut interview which, as we discussed, there were a lot of feelings about crackers. But there was also some dark shit that came out. I think you already saw this one, Corinne, but why don’t you read it?
Corinne
But I want my kid to be pretty and personally I feel thin lean bodies with toned muscles are more beautiful. Also, from experience, they feel better when you move them around in general.
Virginia
I love this comment so much because he doesn’t even pretend it’s about health. Like, forget it. You’re right. The jig is up. I don’t care about health. I want my kid to be pretty.
Corinne
I mean, as I said to you, this one disturbs me because of the part about moving bodies around. What are you even talking about? All I can think of is dead bodies and how they would feel when you move them? UGH. Sorry guys.
Virginia
I totally read it as, he thinks his own lean body feels good to move around. But you were like, “Is he moving around the children?”
Corinne
Yeah, when he picks up his children they feel better when they have thin, lean, toned bodies? It’s so disturbing.
Virginia
But at least that one is honest. You know, he’s like, “Yeah, my kids would be prettier if they’re thin.” And I want to be clear, fat people are very pretty. But this is the belief system that we’re operating against.
Corinne
Yes, right. This is another one where you’re like, “Oh, what a quirky thing that you’ve come up, with that you just like thin people better.”
Virginia
Just a personal preference.
Corinne
Where did you get that?
Virginia
It’s not really about any larger systemic bias. It’s just that he likes “pretty” kids. I mean, could you imagine being this guy’s daughter? Holy shit.
Corinne
He knew about the band first. That’s the energy this is giving.
Virginia
It really is.
Corinne
He discovered The Shins or something.
Virginia
Yes. Okay. One more gem I wanted to share from the ‘Why Are Men’ portion of this. This person writes:
First, stop expecting guys to like fat girls. Second, don’t let girls think it’s cute or sexy to be fat.
Corinne
I guess the title of your book was, I Expect Guys to Like Fat Girls. So you did kind of ask for it.
Virginia
Also, the whole chapter where I was like here are 101 reasons why guys should like fat girls.
Corinne
Fat girls are hot.
Virginia
It’s so interesting to me whether men will find fat women attractive.
Corinne
The only explanation for this is that you posted a story saying it’s illegal for men not to find fat girls hot.
Virginia
Well, obviously. I have that whole series.
Corinne
Call 911.
Virginia
But what’s fascinating about this, again, is that this is his worldview, right? He’s like, “Well I don’t think fat girls are attractive. And how dare this woman not talk about that at all?”
Because I don’t care who you find attractive. But how dare this woman be implying any level of okay-ness with herself and with fat people in general? That interferes with his whole worldview that guys aren’t supposed to like fat girls.
Corinne
Yes. And like, “don’t let girls think that.” Don’t allow them to have their own thoughts.
Virginia
And I will say, I do encourage girls to have their own thoughts.
Corinne
That’s true. That’s true.
Virginia
And I do think it’s cute and sexy to be fat.
Corinne
I do as well. And I have found that other people do also.
Virginia
So I guess this guy is right that I am pushing that message out there. I’m fine with girls thinking it’s cute or sexy to be fat. Because of how it is.
Corinne
You do let girls think that.
Virginia
I let them think for themselves. I can see how that’s upsetting to him. I think for myself, I encourage other girls to think for themselves.
Also, the gender binary heteronormative bullshit of the whole thing. Like, there are a lot of girls who don’t care? It’s so irrelevant?
Yeah, so the men tend to go for the “I’m going to try to out-research you except I have no research” or it gets very personal and, again, I picked the lighter ones. There were many more specific comments on my body and other fat bodies. And we’re not going to read those.
But before people are like, “it’s not all men.” We do get emails from women, too. So next up, this one is from Nikki. Corinne, do you wanna read this one?
Corinne
I listened to your interview on Fresh Air. I am sorry you get hate mail. This message is not intended to be hateful, however, when you use terms like "thin privilege" you should expect some push back. Using the term privilege makes it seem like those of us not "living in larger bodies" are just lucky. I get up at 4 every day of the week to exercise. I run at least one marathon a month. While I'd like to have an extra beer and dessert every night, I don't. It takes an incredible amount of determination and effort, and on some level pain, to achieve a fit body. This is not privilege or luck - it's hard work, and the use of thin privilege is offensive and discounts my effort, and that of everyone else who hasn't just given up and made excises. Yes, some people are naturally thin. I am not, nor are many of my friends who maintain the same fitness regimen. We work at it. You could too if you wanted to, then you would share in the "privilege" of the fruits of your labor.
Virginia
Oh, Nikki. I feel very sad for this one.
Corinne
It is absolutely fucking insane to be running a marathon a month.
Virginia
I feel sad, Corinne just really wants to focus on that. Yes. That is a lot of running.
Corinne
Someone write in and tell me if that’s even allowed? But it is very sad.
Virginia
She is sketching out a lot of very disordered behaviors. Obviously, we don’t know this person. We know nothing beyond what’s in this email. We’re not going to diagnose her.
And she’s right. Some people are naturally thin. Many people are not. Many people are torturing themselves to maintain thinness. That is kind of the whole problem. And it is even harder for people who are torturing themselves in the pursuit of thinness, the way this person is, and don’t achieve thinness because their bodies are not genetically set up to go there. So, that would be the thin privilege layer of this.
And I know this podcast does not need me to explain thin privilege, but we will link to my interview with Aubrey Gordon where we talk through it all, if anyone is new to that concept. Also, Chapter Four of my book is all about thin privilege.
But: The fact that you are personally working very, very hard to maintain your body does not mean you don’t benefit from the way this world treats thin people better than that people.
Corinne
Also, Nikki. Have you never encountered a fat person who had a fitness regimen?
Virginia
Yeah, no, definitely not. Definitely no fat marathon runners. So yes, she’s equating her body with all of her habits. Also, just have the extra beer and the dessert.
Corinne
I know, come on.
Virginia
That sounds rough. I also want to speak to how she said, “I’m sorry, you get hate mail. This message is not intended to be hateful.” That is another thing that comes up. In the Fresh Air interview, Tonya Mosley actually asked me about the pushback I receive. And I think I referred to this stuff as hate mail, because again, the ones about “make me a sandwich,” and comments about my body, that is hate mail. But then I got a bunch that were like, “this isn’t hate mail. This is a debate.” And I just want to clarify: Just because somebody writes a book, and happens to be a woman on the Internet, does not mean she owes you a personal debate, or to help work through your personal points of contention with her work.
Corinne
Nope.
Virginia
You can totally disagree with me. And she’s right that there’s nothing abusive in this email to me.
Corinne
She’s not calling you names.
Virginia
It’s not hate speech.
Corinne
But she is using a lot of quotes. “Thin privilege.”
Virginia
It’s not exactly trolling. But it is not an email that she needed to send. I do wonder a lot about the psychology of people who listen to an interview with someone on the radio they disagree with and go to the trouble to find their email and write a note. Like, what are you expecting to happen? Are we gonna hang out? What is the end game?
Corinne
Like you might get the email and be like, “Oh, you’re right. You’re right.”
Virginia
All these years I’ve spent researching this and writing this book were for nothing, because now I know Nikki isn’t letting herself drink beer.
Corinne
You can tell she’s mad that she’s putting in all this effort and you’re not.
Virginia
Yeah, well, I’ve got sandwiches to make, Nikki. I can’t help you. I’ve got all these men who need me to make them sandwiches.
Corinne
I’ve got marathons to not run.
Virginia
Okay, the next note is from Angela, and there is a lot going on here as well.
Corinne
Virginia,
Im curious if you also have discussions at home about serious health outcomes associated with fatness.
There are many healthy people with high BMIs. But there are also considerable risk factors.
We have watched debilitating and deadly health problems in our family related to type 2 diabetes. Stroke. Death. Debilitating neuropathy. Loss of limbs. These are health outcomes we talked with our kids about as they benefited from thin privilege. That their eating habits especially impact this. It did not alway resonate. But its an honest discussion. They watched relatively you g relatives who were not all that fat SUFFER!
Fat bodies are beautiful. They should not be shamed. All body sizes should know about the very serious risks associated with type 2 diabetes. Sort of fat, skinny fat people get diabetes too.
Its a COMPLICATED conversation. And if you don’t shield your kids from a robust conversation they will still feel safe in their body and home. Kids hate being sugar coated and lied to. You can repeat this mantra of acceptance but it is only one side of the health conversation. You can only have this baby like dialog for so long before your kids realize that you are passionately loving your body and cashing in on a movement. You sound really smart and lovely on the radio. I urge you to broaden your thesis.
Respectfully,
Angela
Virginia
This person is making my argument and not making my argument at the same time. It’s very hard to hold it all together. They make the point that all body sizes should be concerned about long term health risks, which is something I am also arguing for. I’m saying, “let’s take weight out of health conversations.” Everyone can think about what’s doable within their life to promote their health, if they want. She’s saying that sort of fat and skinny fat people get diabetes, too. Also just regular skinny people get it. So that’s useful. It is a complicated conversation.
But then she’s like, “Don’t just tell them to love their bodies.” So I don’t understand exactly what she wants. I guess she wants us to also fear monger to kids about long-term health issues?
Corinne
This person is clearly grieving or something, you know? They clearly have watched someone they care about suffer and are somehow trying to transfer that onto their kids, which seems really unfair.
Virginia
I got a couple other versions of this, where people were telling me about their family history and basically saying, “Well, this is why I tell my kids, we can’t eat junk food. And this is why I tell my kids they have to exercise.” And it just really breaks my heart.
Because the fact is, a lot of this is genetically predisposed. Lifestyle habits definitely do matter, but teaching your kids from a young age that they have to think about food and how they exercise as this constant battle against a looming future health risk really takes away their ability to just be children in their body. And I say this as a parent of a kid with a chronic health condition. It’s something I’ve spent a lot of time thinking about. How do we make sure you are not defined by the health condition you have and get to just be yourself and live your life? And if that means you’re not perfectly healthy all the time, I think it’s more valuable to me that you get to enjoy your life.
And I think this is even more true if this isn’t an active health issue you’re managing. If you’re just worrying about what might happen 10, 20, 40 years down the road and staying in this place of fear about it. It definitely feels very rooted in trauma, but I don’t think it’s actually health-promoting.
Corinne
I agree with you. It seems really stressful. And if there’s one thing we know about chronic health conditions, stress doesn’t usually help them.
Virginia
And if you are concerned about your child’s future metabolic health, eating disorders really do a number on your metabolic health in ways that linger for decades after recovery. Preventing eating disorders is not promoting diabetes. This is actually very much in service of preventing Type Two Diabetes, to the extent that any health condition can be prevented.
Corinne
I mean, there was that recent, very popular article in The Atlantic about how eating ice cream is associated with lower rates of Type Two Diabetes.
Virginia
But I do like that she called me smart and lovely on the radio. I appreciate that. Another hallmark of the emails from women is the mix of the compliment and the not compliment.
Corinne
“You’re smart and lovely but stop this baby-like dialogue.”
Virginia
We contain multitudes, Corinne. I can hold those things together.
It reminds me of my very favorite of all of my troll comments, the guy calling me a high priestess of the indulgence gospel. I still feel like it’s the nicest thing anyone’s ever said about me?
Corinne
It is really wonderful.
Virginia
Truly, beautiful poetry
Corinne
It is like beautiful poetry.
Virginia
All right. Next up is another delightful email. This one came with the subject line “Hey, fatso,” so you can imagine where we’re going. Take it away, Corinne.
Corinne
I need to make a comment about your statement that being thin has something to do with slavery. First, I am old enough to be your grandmother. I have been fat all my life because I am a big Norwegian woman with a DNA that goes back to the Vikings. I have a lot of trouble staying healthy because I have a number of digestive issues. And it has ZERO to do with slavery. That’s an insult!
You are one of those spoiled overindulged know it all product of a generation of overindulged spoiled children, who barely understand or appreciate the generations that came before.
You got a little golden book of American history, then hung your hook on the most controversial subject you could find, so you could make a few bucks.
My own daughter is an athlete and has Type 1 Diabetes - she has to stay thin or she dies. Obesity is also a result of many other metabolic diseases and the last thing anyone thinks about is slavery - enjoy your profits you greedy little monster.
Virginia
Guys, I am sorry we’re not releasing a video of this, because Corinne’s expressions when she is reading these emails are so amazing. And it’s making me laugh a lot.
Corinne
I don’t even know where to start, you greedy little monster.
Virginia
So, okay. I mean, this is in chapter one of the book. Anti-fatness is rooted in anti-Black racism. And modern diet culture can be traced back to the end of slavery in the United States. This is when we see the thin ideal really heighten and intensify in terms of media representations and in terms of how medical researchers at the time were talking about what constituted “good health.” The ideal became much thinner because it was a way of centering white bodies over Black and brown bodies. This is all in the book. Obviously, you also need to read Sabrina Strings’ Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fat Phobia and Da’Shaun Harrison Belly of the Beast: The Politics of Anti-Fatness as Anti-Blackness to get the deep dive.
So what happened is, in the Fresh Air interview, Tonya Mosley and I had a very nuanced and detailed conversation about this. And then Fox News and the New York Post and Breitbart and the Daily Mail and several other conservative media outlets I am forgetting picked up this particular chunk of the Fresh Air conversation and ran all these stories about “author says wanting to be thin makes you racist.”
What’s interesting is, some of the pieces are literally just taking my quotes from the transcript but with a framing that’s like, ‘can you believe!’ and I’m like, “well, you’re laying it out quite well?” But they know exactly how to tweak it for their audience, it’s like a dog whistle to really stir up this response.
So, this was the first of many emails from people very offended that I said being thin has something to do with slavery. This “little Golden Book of American history,” and “you’re hanging your hook on this most controversial subject,” all of that is coming straight from this. Like, how dare you? How dare you call out whiteness? How dare you call out the fact that whiteness has been complicit with the thin ideal for decades and decades and hundreds of years. That’s what she’s upset about.
Also, she’s descended from Vikings, so she should be proud of that. Good for her. And again, we see the fear mongering with the kid with the Type One Diabetes “has to stay thin or die.”
Corinne
I can’t with this person.
Virginia
You have no words.
Okay. So this one came in under the subject “speaking engagement,” because if you are on my portfolio website and you use the contact form, you can say it’s a press request or speaking engagement or whatever and I guess they thought if they just picked other I might not be reading those and they would be right. I have stopped reading those this week. So this person used “speaking engagement” as the subject and then wrote:
I would like to retain your services for a speaking engagement. My colleagues and I simply don’t believe you exist, we do not believe such a racist bigoted piece of shit such as yourself could exist, you must be fake. We’d be willing to pay you to regurgitate the garbage ideas in your rotten brain. I hope CPS takes your kids away if God forbid you have any, they deserve better than having racist, unhealthy, hate filled bigot as a parent.
Go fuck yourself.
So I just want to know: My speaking fee is quite high. Do we think they’re going to also cover travel? Like, I just need more details on the speaking engagement offer.
Corinne
Yeah, I hope you called them.
Virginia
Definitely forwarded it right over to Ariel, my speaking agent.
Corinne
What kind of colleagues do you think this person has?
Virginia
I assume the other people who live in his mother’s basement?
Corinne
If I got this, I would be looking up their colleagues, calling them, and being like, “Did you know your colleague just sent me an email that says ‘Go fuck yourself?’”
Virginia
This person has no colleagues, Corinne. This is not an actual request for a speaking engagement.
Corinne
Yeah, I mean, this is disturbing. “I hope CPS takes your kids away?” That’s so sad and scary.
Virginia
This was not the only one that went there. The comments on The Cut piece also had a frequent refrain about child abuse. Because we stock orange snack crackers. So I just want people to really sit with what child abuse means to them. There were also a few threats of physical violence and legal action, which I’m not going to read for all of our well being and my own safety. Again, I was thinking we would mostly stay in the funny make-me-a-sandwich place with this and then all this really toxic stuff has been coming in.
It’s interesting, because I do not internalize it. None of this makes me doubt the importance of doing this work or makes me think, “Oh, I better not be outspoken about this.” None of it works. But it is a profound energy drain that every time I open my email or my DMs on Twitter or Instagram right now, I’m thinking what am I going to see? How many people am I going to report and block?
And there’s this shrugging response that some people have of like, “well, what can you expect?” And I just find that very disappointing. I think we can expect better from humans. I do. I mean, I know. I’m not naive. I’ve been public on the Internet for a long time now. This isn’t the first time I’ve had this kind of thing blow up. But I don’t think that this is a reasonable cost of doing business.
Corinne
It also just it makes me curious. Do you think that the people who we vehemently disagree with are getting this kind of email? Like, are people emailing Tucker Carlson like this?
Virginia
That’s an interesting question.
Corinne
It’s just very strange.
Virginia
I would assume yes, to be honest. I mean, think back to the 2016 election. The Bernie Bros were not great. Everyone, I’m a Bernie Sanders fan. We don’t need to get into that. But I had a tweet about Elizabeth Warren go viral during that election—and I’m not a political journalist. This was just me tweeting my feelings about Elizabeth Warren. And that Twitter thread blew up with the Bernie Bros coming in and saying really nasty stuff to me. Not quite on this level, not threats of physical violence level, but it was definitely not a respectful discourse.
Corinne
Yeah. And people were very fatphobic to Donald Trump.
Virginia
Lots of woke progressives are very fatphobic.
Corinne
But I just feel like, who does this? Who is sending these emails?
Virginia
Again, it’s a lot of men. And apparently a couple of grandmas, a couple of angry grandmas?
Corinne
Viking Grandmas.
Virginia
The other thing that’s a dog whistle here is all of these emails calling me racist. What they mean is racist to white people. That’s what they’re talking about. They’re saying that I am being anti-white.
Corinne
Which is a premise that I don’t accept.
Virginia
Correct. I also don’t accept it.
Corinne
Okay, we need to bring things up a little. So here are some nice comments.
This comment came from the Friday open thread.
Virginia
Which was beautiful, I loved it so much.
Corinne
Yes. I’m going to read one from Diana.
Virginia, this is a love note. I write a mental love note to you in my head every time I read the newsletter and listen to the podcast, but have been too shy to share it until now. I am so grateful to you for this difficult and important work you are doing. You are so brave to speak up on behalf of all of us and to put this target on your back. Your work has changed my life. It has changed my kids' lives. It has made me a better parent who will never, ever count bites of broccoli again. It has changed the way I work with clients in my private therapy practice. It inspires me to constantly grow, question, and evolve. You write so beautifully, so movingly, and you're so damn smart and talented. I cried at the end of listening to you read the first chapter of Fat Talk. I shared it with everyone I know because it was so brilliantly written and so moving. You're a hero, and I'm grateful for you every day. You are changing the world. The trolls see how powerful you are and it scares them. The more powerful and radical your message, the louder and nastier the trolls will be, so every time you get an awful DM, take a moment to center yourself with that knowledge. Their vitriol is a sign that you're doing this right, that you're ruffling feathers, that you're challenging the status quo. Keep up the good work
Virginia
I mean, I may cry? That was far too nice to just me. I did not ask you to read some nice notes at the end here, so that people would say I’m brilliant or whatever! That was not the point of this, Corinne. But thank you, that is amazing, really amazing. And it is really helpful to just hear that the work is helping people. Like I said: The mean comments don’t make me want to stop. But it’s nice to be reminded why we’re doing this, for sure. So you are all high priestesses of the indulgence gospel, or whatever gender term you would like to use to describe yourself. Thank you.
Butter
Virginia
Should we do some butter?
Corinne
Yeah, let’s do some butter. I want to recommend this book. It’s called _____ Is a Breakfast Food.2 It is written by my close personal friend, Marjory Sweet, who is cook, and a farmer, and a baker, and the reason that I ended up in New Mexico. She is now back in Maine. But, it’s a cookbook, it has recipes, but it’s also a little like avant garde personal meditation on breakfast and how we eat this meal.
Virginia
We are very pro-breakfast here!
Corinne
And it has a bunch of interesting, unfussy recipes, as well as little writings from Marjory and quotes from women about what they like to eat for breakfast. I just thought people might enjoy it. It’s a cool format, too—it’s spiral-bound and it has little photo inserts.
Virginia
It looks really neat. I’m very excited. And I, as discussed, have been in a breakfast rut for 20 years, but I would be excited to try some different breakfast things. Plus, I bet you could eat them for other meals as well?
Corinne
Yes, definitely. Sometimes recipes are just good for entertainment, too.
Virginia
Yeah, that is true. I was thinking the other day, especially in this phase of life I’m in where my children don’t eat most of the foods I like, a lot of my cookbooks are really just recreational.
Corinne
Totally. What’s your butter?
Virginia
Mine is two books I read in the past week. Because as I was dealing with this onslaught of feelings from the men and the grandmas, I realized that I had no bandwidth for any challenging media consumption. I barely made it through an episode of Succession. I was like, “I can’t follow this business conversation.”
Corinne
Yes. That makes sense.
Virginia
And I actually have two books I need to read for my book clubs that are coming up very soon. And I can’t do it. They’re like serious fiction and I don’t have it in me. Anyway, so these were two delightful feminist romance novels that I read last week. One is The Unhoneymooners by Christina Lauren, which was a treat. And the other one is The Ex Talk by Rachel Lynn Solomon.
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What I will say about The Unhoneymooners, if you read feminist romance for a lot of sex, it’s not one of the ones with a lot of sex. It is delightful, but you just want to know going in it’s not a super sexy one. But it’s really fun. You do have to suspend some disbelief about original premises of these things.
And the ex talk is really fun because it is two public radio hosts who get put together to make a podcast where they have to pretend to be exes. And again, suspend some disbelief about what NPR station would think that was a good idea. But especially if you’re into podcasts, like there are lots of discussions of PodCon and public radio sort of banter, so that makes it a fun world.
Corinne
That sounds really fun.
Virginia
Yeah, they were both perfect. I’m sad they’re over.
Alright, thank you guys. This was very cathartic for me. These have been coming in and I’ve been usually not reading them or just shoving them into a folder in my email which I call Men Yell at Me in honor of lyz’s newsletter, who for sure knows firsthand what it’s like to get these emails.
Thanks so much for listening to Burnt Toast!
Corinne
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Virginia
They really are showing up, guys! I didn’t just make Corinne say that. So yeah, get in there and leave a review.
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Click at your own risk: https://www.foxnews.com/media/npr-podcast-argues-thinness-product-white-supremacy-patriarchy
Since recording, Marjory’s website has sold out of books, but the book is available now at Vestige and General Store should be available online soon at Post Supply.