100. Anne Applebaum: Corruption, Populism, and Ending the War in Ukraine
Sep 29, 2024
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In this discussion, Anne Applebaum, an American-Polish journalist and historian known for her insights on autocracies, dives into the landscape of global politics. She explores what defines an autocratic state and how populism surged in the early 2010s. Anne scrutinizes the hypocrisy in international relations, particularly regarding foreign influence on US and UK politics. The conversation touches on the resilience of democratic movements in oppressive regimes and offers a glimpse into possible outcomes of the ongoing war in Ukraine.
Anne Applebaum highlights the shift in political discourse since 2012, driven by social media that favors division over constructive debate.
The complacency of Western governments towards Russian oligarchs has enabled corruption to undermine democratic institutions and escalate the Ukraine conflict.
The podcast explores the tension between autocratic and democratic systems, emphasizing the ongoing war in Ukraine as pivotal for future governance.
Deep dives
Personal Journey Through Eastern Europe
The speaker recounts several pivotal chapters in her relationship with Eastern Europe, beginning with a formative trip to the Soviet Union as a student. Experiencing the transition in Poland post-1989 offered her valuable insights into the political changes taking place. Her marriage to a Polish politician enabled her to gain an insider perspective on the complexities of Eastern European politics. This journey culminated with witnessing the resurgence of democratic coalitions in Poland, highlighting a moment of hope amid ongoing challenges.
The Evolution of Political Discourse
She discusses a notable shift in political discourse around 2012 that coincided with the rise of social media, which favored anger and division over constructive debates. This transformation has led to a decline in traditional media's influence, diminishing its ability to foster understanding and transparency in politics. Furthermore, the emergence of a more polarized climate has changed how citizens engage with political issues, often prioritizing emotional responses over rational discussions. Such dynamics have significant implications for democratic processes and the public's perception of governance.
Western Relations with Putin's Russia
The speaker evaluates the initial responses of Western governments to Putin's rise, arguing that there was a troubling naivety in believing a neutral economic relationship could be maintained. The willingness to overlook the financial activities of Russian oligarchs in Western markets facilitated the laundering of corrupt funds and undermined Western democracies. This complacency has repercussions that are now evident, as the threat posed by Russia escalates in part due to these very relationships. The ongoing conflict in Ukraine serves as a harsh reminder of the consequences of this historical oversight.
Populism vs. Democracy
The complexities of populism and its relationship to democracy are explored, distinguishing between populist movements that participate in democratic systems and autocratic regimes that dismantle those systems. Autocratic populism, as illustrated by leaders in Hungary and Poland, often deploys nationalist rhetoric and seeks to delegitimize opposition. The postulation that populism can be harnessed for democratic ends remains contentious, as the strategies employed by these leaders frequently erode democratic institutions. Understanding these trends is crucial as societies navigate an increasingly polarized political landscape.
The Global Contest of Governance Styles
The speaker posits that the current geopolitical landscape is defined by a contest between autocratic and democratic systems, with significant implications for the future of governance worldwide. With autocratic states becoming more adept at operating mutually and undermining democratic norms, the stability of democracies hangs in the balance. The ongoing war in Ukraine is a crucial factor, revealing how global alliances are influenced by differing governance models. Ultimately, the success or failure of these systems will likely shape international relations for years to come.
What constitutes an autocratic state? How did populism come to dominate global politics from 2012-2014? When and how will the war in Ukraine end?
On today’s episode of Leading, Rory and Alastair are joined by American-Polish journalist and historian Anne Applebaum, to discuss all this and more.
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