The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie

James Fadiman and Jordan Gruber: Psychedelics Legalization Will Continue No Matter Who Is President

Mar 26, 2025

Guest

Jordan Gruber

Guest

James Fadiman

James Fadiman, a Stanford-trained psychologist and pioneer in microdosing, teams up with Jordan Gruber, co-author on health benefits of psychedelics. They dive into how microdosing can alleviate depression and enhance cognitive function, likening it to a vitamin regimen. The duo tackles the shifting landscape of psychedelic legalization, discussing its cultural normalization regardless of political climate. They also reflect on the growing acceptance of psychedelics in therapy, emphasizing the potential for societal transformation and healing.

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ANECDOTE

Burning Man Depression Cure

A woman reported that microdosing cured her post-Burning Man depression.
This is an example of the real-world evidence Fadiman collects.

ANECDOTE

Return to Normal

Many microdosers report feeling "back to normal" after a few weeks.
This "normal" refers to their pre-depression state, especially for treatment-resistant individuals.

INSIGHT

Holistic Benefits

Microdosing may improve various conditions by enhancing neuroplasticity and reducing inflammation.
It promotes equilibrium, enabling the body and mind to function better overall.

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Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Performance

Jordan Gruber

James Fadiman

This book is the first comprehensive resource on microdosing, using new research and extensive reports from individuals to describe the possibilities of the practice. It blends extensive research with detailed personal accounts from contributors worldwide, covering microdosing history, research, and science. The authors address how microdosing has been used to alleviate symptoms of depression, ADHD, chronic pain, and long COVID, as well as to enhance focus, mental acuity, and physical abilities. The book also provides information on safety protocols and distinguishes microdosing from traditional psychedelic use, urging readers to consult with healthcare providers before engaging in any microdosing regimen.

The psychedelic explorer's guide

James Fadiman

James Fadiman's "The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide" is a comprehensive guide to the responsible use of psychedelics. It provides detailed information on various psychedelic substances, including their history, effects, and potential risks. The book emphasizes the importance of setting and setting, and offers practical advice for conducting psychedelic sessions safely and effectively. It also includes a wealth of anecdotal accounts from individuals who have used psychedelics for personal growth and therapeutic purposes. Fadiman's work has been influential in shaping the modern psychedelic renaissance.

Steppenwolf

Herman Hesse

Steppenwolf, written by Hermann Hesse, is a deeply philosophical and psychological novel that follows the life of Harry Haller, a 48-year-old man who identifies himself as a 'Steppenwolf,' feeling half-human and half-wolf. The novel delves into Harry's inner turmoil as he struggles to reconcile his intellectual and artistic side with his more primal, wolfish nature. Through his interactions with characters like Hermine, Pablo, and Maria, Harry is forced to confront his own dualism and the societal conventions he despises. The novel is known for its complex exploration of the human condition, incorporating elements of Eastern mysticism and Western culture, and culminates in a surreal and symbolic journey through the 'Magic Theater' where Harry's multiple selves are explored[2][4][5].

A really good day

Ayelet Waldman

In 'A Really Good Day,' Ayelet Waldman chronicles her 30-day experiment with microdosing LSD to manage her severe mood storms. The book delves into her personal struggles with mood disorders, the history and mythology of LSD, and the current research on its therapeutic benefits. Waldman, drawing from her experiences as a federal public defender and a mother, provides a multifaceted exploration of the drug's impact on her life, her family, and the broader societal context of drug policy and mental health treatment.

You've probably heard about microdosing, which involves taking a small, "sub-perceptual" dose of psychedelics like LSD or psilocybin on a regular basis to ward off depression, anxiety, and chronic pain—or to optimize focus and boost energy.

Today's guests are James Fadiman and Jordan Gruber, authors of the new book Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Performance. Fadiman, a Stanford-trained research psychologist who has been working with psychedelics since the early 1960s, popularized the concept of microdosing over a decade ago. They talk with Reason's Nick Gillespie about the mechanics of and theory behind microdosing, its promise and limits, and how it fits into the larger psychedelic renaissance that has been flowering for most of the 21st century. And they discuss the prospects for legalization and cultural normalization of psychedelics under the Trump administration.

1:19 — New book: Microdosing for Health, Healing, and Enhanced Performance
5:12 — How Fadiman discovered microdosing
8:10 — How Gruber began microdosing
8:57 — Microdosing is similar to a vitamin protocol
11:17 — MDMA, ketamine, and cannabis work differently
12:50 — Microdosing for depression
16:02 — Other conditions microdosing could help alleviate
19:09 — Is microdosing for life?
21:17 — How to quantify the efficacy of microdosing
30:14 — Psychedelics and drug law
37:30 — Psychedelic-assisted therapy
39:40 — Psychedelics and their benefits are nonideological
46:15 — Fadiman and Gruber's 2020 book: Your Symphony of Selves
53:45 — Drug legalization under Donald Trump

Today's sponsor:

The Reason Speakeasy. The Reason Speakeasy is a monthly, unscripted conversation in New York City with outspoken defenders of free thinking and heterodoxy in an age of intellectual conformity and groupthink. It doubles as a live taping of The Reason Interview With Nick Gillespie podcast. The next one takes place on Tuesday, April 8, with Jeffrey Singer, who recently authored Your Body, Your Health Care. Go here to buy tickets and go here to sign up for Reason's NYC Events newsletter.

Video Editor: Ian Keyser

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