Ancient Roman Pronatalism: The Last Time We Failed to Solve Fertility Collapse

In this episode, we delve into the ancient Roman fertility crisis, focusing on the efforts of Augustus to encourage marriage and childbearing among the Roman elite. We discuss various laws introduced by Augustus, such as the Lex Julia and Lex Papia Poppaea, aimed at promoting procreation and the penalties imposed on the unmarried and childless. We explore the historical context, examining the low fertility rates of notable Roman families and the societal implications. Furthermore, we draw parallels to modern issues of declining fertility rates, particularly in Italy, and the potential cultural and economic impacts. Join us as we uncover the motivations behind Augustus' policies and the ultimate challenges they faced in ensuring the survival of Rome's elite lineage.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today we are going to be talking about ancient Roman tism.

Simone Collins: Oh, the failed kind,

Malcolm Collins: right? Many people have heard. Of Rome as As, and they've, they've heard of, like Augustus say, being concerned about falling fertility rates among Roman elites. Mm-hmm. We've heard that he put in laws to try to prevent this.

Mm-hmm. We've heard, oh, this is mirrored with our current societal collapse and this is a pretense of the destruction of a global empire in the same way.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: People thought as a pretense of the destruction of the Roman empire. Right. Even though it wasn't, that happened a long time after this particular concern.

But I mean it kind of was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We'll see. But I was like, wait. What were those laws, what actually happened in Rome during this period? Mm-hmm. What did people of the period have to say about this? Mm-hmm. How low did the fertility rate of the Roman elite actually get? Hmm. And I'll also start by saying Rome's going through this again.

Italy right now has the fertility rate of only 1.18. That means every hundred Italians, there's only gonna be 20 great grandchildren. We are looking at the complete collapse of, italian civilization likely was in our [00:01:00] lifetimes, which is gonna be good point.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Hadn't thought. Yeah. We're sort of, we're back, we're back to square one.

Malcolm Collins: And this, this also causes a lot of problems like for Catholicism because if, if Italy is no longer Italian or Catholic anymore, you know what happens to the Vatican? Tough, tough world we might be entering. But I, I, I think they're gonna get it together. I think they're gonna get it together. I have faith so we'll start here talking about Augustus.

Okay. So Augustus uses platform to urge Romans to marry and have children framing it as a civic duty in a famous speech recorded by historian DiUS, he said. If we could survive without a wife, citizens of Rome, all of us would do without that nuisance. Oh wow. But since the nature has so decreed that we cannot manage comfortably with them nor live in any way without them.

Yeah. We must plan for our lasting preservation. That's rather than, rather for our temporary pleasure. That's amazing. Okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: that is. I, we, we needed to have Augustus at Alcon, so all the journalists could be quoting [00:02:00] Augusta. Oh yeah.

Simone Collins: He would be the clickbait. He would be the, the, yeah, the soundbite generator for natal con, the soundbite

Malcolm Collins: generator for, for modern journalists.

Simone Collins: Wives, they're awful. But I mean, you gotta, you gotta put up with it. You gotta put up with it. It's like colonoscopies and wives

Malcolm Collins: necessary.

Not exactly a view. I, I'm not gonna say like that, that's a view I would've given to Romans, like, sat them down and been like, okay, it's gonna be terrible. It's gonna be the worst thing ever.

Simone Collins: Ugh. And women, I at least Trump, you know, is more like, man, you're so lucky. Yeah. Gods was really not selling it like at all. Like, you gotta do it. It sucks, but, but it's your duty. Yeah. No wonder this is doomed from the very start for the, my goodness.

Malcolm Collins: You don't set it for the queen,

Simone Collins: you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Lie back and think of England or Rome in this case.

Malcolm Collins: So this quote reflects his view that marriage, though challenging was essential for Rome survival. Mm-hmm. He also praised fathers of large families and criticized the childless, emphasizing the importance of producing heirs to maintain Rome's strengths.

Mm-hmm. On the [00:03:00] duty of recreation, he said you have shown yourself to be mindful of the continued existence of our race while these others have not Dio, Cassius book 56 spoken to married men with children. This quote praises them for fulfilling their civic duty while implicitly criticizing unmarried and childless for neglecting it.

This is so much worse than JD Vans. You have shown yourself to be mindful to the continued existence of our race. Well, the others have not. Childless cat

Simone Collins: is a lot more catchy.

Malcolm Collins: I just, I just need to just have quotes from him like in my back pocket to freak people out. You've been mindful about the preservation of our race.

I really appreciate that. And, you know, some others have not. Gosh,

August. He really,

Simone Collins: really, I mean, he was a very smart, successful man on many fronts. This is making me doubt his competence. Maybe this was late stage Augustus, you know, like, yeah. Ugh,

Malcolm Collins: Augustus on Childlessness. Oh boy. According to dio, [00:04:00] Cassius Augustus criticized Romans for failing to reproduce even when it was easier for them in earlier times.

Quote. Mm-hmm. How wrathful would the Romans who were Romulus followers be after they had gotten children even by their enemies wives. You will not beget them. Even of women who are citizens. Oh, oh my. This guy, goodness.

Simone Collins: This guy, the way he about women, he's like, baby, get children by grape. You won't

Malcolm Collins: even do it with your own wife.

Like what a like on the pedestal. Griping your enemy's wives where he is down here?

Simone Collins: Not very you know, I, I'm seeing the problem here. He, he had just two kids. He himself was a reproductive failure.

Malcolm Collins: Surviv kids. Yeah. Five kids.

Simone Collins: Yeah. But I get it.

Malcolm Collins: But yeah, he was below repopulation rate. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So yeah, I know he bad guy.

I keep in mind a lot of people get the strong about repopulation, right? They think that 2.1 is about [00:05:00] people dying at different rates. It's not, it's about differences in sex when people are born you know, you get more males than females born. And so, that's, that's why. Nothing else. So it, it doesn't account for that.

So if he had his other kids die, he really was below repopulation rate in terms of his own fertility. Which I think shows, you know, even if the emperor can't, can't make it happen.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Well, I mean, he wasn't a believer, he was not himself a believer. Trump a lot of kids. JD Vance, three kids like,

Malcolm Collins: well, if I was his wife, I would not maybe be super interested in Procreating was a guy who's like, oh, ancestors, they just got a.

Great. Their way to reproduction. Really? And we, ah, can't even motivate it with our wives. Yeah. The duty of it. I mean, I know our wives are terrible, but the duty of it all. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Wow. Wow. So Augustus introduced key legislation. Vote did fed him up though. What?

Simone Collins: Like sexually, she kind of hooked him up, didn't she?

Who hooked him up remembering this Augustus's wife

Malcolm Collins: hooked him up with other people.

Simone Collins: [00:06:00] Yeah. Maybe am I remembering this wrong? I, I, I, I've like read a couple of his biographies, but like back in like 2018, so it's been a long time.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I did in post if she did. Yeah.

I couldn't find any evidence of this when I asked ai.

Malcolm Collins: But, but I love that you're the type of history obsessed perv who would know that, but you would like,

Simone Collins: well, you would think if that were the case, he'd be a little more charitable, you know, if she was a wingwoman and yet he's still, you know.

That that's a, that would be in bird culture.

Malcolm Collins: I know that his sister Right. Was the one who talked about using fertility being pregnant as contraception.

Simone Collins: Oh. 'cause her ship was carrying a load.

Malcolm Collins: I, yeah, I know. To only you know, take the sailors when the ship was carrying a load.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: All right. It works.

Clever.

Simone Collins: Never heard that one before.

Malcolm Collins: Clever girl. Underrated.

Simone Collins: Underrated.

Malcolm Collins: Yes. All right. Augustus introduced key legislation to promote marriage and procreation, particularly among the upper classes. Lex, Julia Day Es Orio. 18th BC the purpose [00:07:00] was to encourage marriage among Roman citizens, especially the upper classes, the requirements.

Men over 25 and women over 20 were expected to marry unmarried individuals celibate. I guess it means like celibates faced restrictions on inheritance and detailed below childless married couples or be, were also penalized though less severely. And I'm, I'm totally actually okay with.

Legislation like that Lex Popeye puppet nine ad I mean, if you're not s if you're not paying to the future of the debt that you owe in the past, then it makes sense that you bear some additional costs.

Simone Collins: Pay yourself.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You pay it yourself. Yeah. And I think it actually will become normalized around the world by the time we die.

It's assuming we lived for another 40, 50 years.

Simone Collins: Oh, I don't think so. Because you can only do that when you know. That that person's like, it's unfair if a person produces children who then are net welfare drains. So I feel like the, the Robin Hansen tax bond thing would have to be in there a little bit more.

Well, yeah.

Malcolm Collins: What you might do is, is they have [00:08:00] to produce children that are. No, I don't think so. I think even just like the, the, the harsh tax for not being married is good. 'cause we know that a lot of the child list thing is just people aren't getting married fast enough. Or, or, or enough,

Simone Collins: yeah. And when you're not married, you know, your, your kid is at a disadvantage too.

I mean, I imagine that there is a correlation. No, no, but the point

Malcolm Collins: here being is, is even was in his new laws. Unmarried people paid a very big fine. Married people without kids, paid a smaller fine, and then people whiz kids didn't pay a fine at all. Oh. And so it's creating an, it is like a, a, a graded incentive with the first part of the grade being, getting married.

Simone Collins: Okay.

Malcolm Collins: And I think that if you implemented a prenatal list policy that should be the first part of the grading system, not the first kid you have. Sure. Yeah. Okay. But yeah. And then Lex Papai Papa nine Ad Purpose Strengthen the Lex Julia by refining penalties and adding incentives for having children.

Requirements reinforce the expectation of marriage within the same age [00:09:00] ranges. So it also, uh mm created more penalty for people who married people who are much younger than them, which

Simone Collins: that's so good. I wonder if they intuitively or even technically knew that there were. Lower odds of healthy children when you had, yeah.

It's really

Malcolm Collins: bad for older men to marry younger women from a genetic perspective. Yeah. Like you shouldn't do that. That shouldn't be your going plan.

Simone Collins: Or if you plan on doing that, at least freeze your sperm guys.

Malcolm Collins: Guys penalties. Further restricted inheritance for unmarried and childless. See below incentives.

Parents with three or more children gain privileges such as for men, faster advancement in political careers for women. Legal independence Under the Is Truman Lido. Oh, right. Of three children. So this basically meant that you could all right, so hold on. This requires some explanation of Roman law.

Women couldn't own property themselves. Mm-hmm. In, in Rome. Mm-hmm. So like, if you were an unmarried woman, you often couldn't even inherit your father's estate. And if, but if you kids. But if you had at least three kids, you could.

Simone Collins: Hey, that's great. Okay. Because I [00:10:00] know one of the things discussed in the spread of, of Christianity was that, I mean, Christianity spread a lot 'cause women finally were treated with some respect.

Their children weren't killed when they weren't desired or seen as fit enough. They, they loved that. And I, and this one thing did point out the

Malcolm Collins: tactic. One of the things that he complained about, the Jews t. Tus.

Simone Collins: Oh, okay.

Malcolm Collins: Complained about the Jews. He said when he was describing all the horrifying things that Jews do alongside, you know, circumcisions and their demonic practices, he's like, they, they even prevent the exposure of children.

Simone Collins: Oh, how dare they not? Kill babies

Malcolm Collins: is not drown Babies. Those, these monstrous, these Jewish monsters, everybody knows you just drown. Ba I love, there's like a complete inversion of of, of blood libel, of this belief that, that Jews are evil because they're like killing babies. Yeah. It's Jews are evil because they're not killing their babies.

That is,

Simone Collins: Yeah, man, like you can't win as a Jew, can you? Oh, you're not killing the, no, [00:11:00] now you're killing the baby. You're whatever with the babies. It's when,

Malcolm Collins: when killing babies was normal to you, who were doing the opposite.

Speaker 11: I'll take care of this. Hey Clara, there's a Jew outside, trying to poison a well! Ah! Oh my God! Get away from that well, Hebrew! What? I'm putting in water purification tablets. Spanky tricked me!

Malcolm Collins: And it wasn't even a conspiracy with tus. I love it. I love it. I can imagine somebody being like, well, I don't know.

You know, this seems like an antisemitic conspiracy. Surely Jews expose some of their babies. You just mean they expose them at a lower rate. Right? And it's like, no, they actually like never do this.

Simone Collins: I guess you could say that they, they expose their foreskins to trash cans. If they're male,

Malcolm Collins: they expose their, what?

Simone Collins: I don't understand. Something's not making it out. Right. Foreskins. The foreskins. There's, there's something that's being

Malcolm Collins: Oh,

Simone Collins: yeah. But yeah. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Anyway so, so, and then the faster advancement in political careers, I think is what we're gonna begin to see in the ccp. I, I, I assume it's already like a shadow a thing.

Mm-hmm. Is that you're not [00:12:00] gonna be promoted quickly in the CCP if you don't have lots of kids. Yeah. I think this only makes sense in the totalitarian states that are likely gonna pro replace our existing democracies. If you want to learn more about that, you can watch our recent video on why demographic apps make monarchy inevitable.

The gist being is that as elderly make a larger and larger, specifically the elderly that are living off of the system. Become a majority population within a country, they would never vote themselves less incentives, which eventually collapses the state. Yeah. Because the majority of the population is living off of the state and the majority of the population controls who's elected president.

And so, the state just ends up collapsing. Uh uh, and, and then you need, you need a system. You that doesn't favor the majority of view. Yeah. And those you know, in, in a nascent state maybe the Charter Cities end up taking off in one of, like our governance system that was covered in the Guardian ends up becoming a dominant governance system, but it's just as likely that we end up in monarchies or, or dictatorships, and it's just important that we're on the right side and having [00:13:00] lots of kids will likely get you there.

So funny, we're heading directly towards the Handmaid's Tale outcome. And the, the progressives are taking us there. They hand and foot skipping into that feature. They're hot for it.

Simone Collins: Malcolm, I don't know what else to say. Like they

Malcolm Collins: are hot for it. See our video on that?

Simone Collins: We don't want it. They seem to be like, oh, no.

Oh, hot conservative man. Please don't bere me in front of a jealous upper class woman who you just prefer me to and need me so much more, and she just has to fume that. Your desire for me is so, oh my God. Okay. I can't, I'm gonna vomit.

Malcolm Collins: What it's, it's gross. It's gross. And then they cosplay in public and, and do their whole little,

The Handmaid's Tale costume is turning into the new go-to protest attire for women.

Malcolm Collins: No, I

Simone Collins: don't wanna kink shame.

I just, mm. But like, it, it bothers me. 'cause yeah, there's children that heard, I keep trying to seek out evidence that it's not [00:14:00] true and that I keep seeing evidence that like

Malcolm Collins: we go over in the episode, just like a preponderance of statistical evidence that it's true.

You know, it doesn't matter what our faces look like, as long as we're fertile

You are bad. Yeah, but not too bad. Otherwise you get gals, guess what I did last night? Ate your rations in silence and cried into your straw bed.

Yes. Classically. Well, I had sex with a married couple. Oh, so did I. Who would've guessed we'd be having three ways in our thirties?

Malcolm Collins: Anyway, property inheritance restrictions.

So I wanted to know more about this. I'm like reading, okay, there's restrictions. Describe right. The laws impose significant limits on inheritance rights for unmarried and childless. Okay. Using property as a tool to enforce compliance, here's how much inheritance was restricted for unmarried Saba restriction.

Unmarried individuals were generally prohibited from [00:15:00] inheriting. Under wills except from close relatives, eg. Parents or siblings. Really Interesting. So they could still inherit from their parents or siblings, like if it's like really like felt unjust that they weren't inheriting. Sure. But other than that you couldn't get like a, I really liked this guy, or I consider him like a son to me.

Mm-hmm. Or you know, et cetera. You couldn't inherit from them.

Simone Collins: Yeah. So, you know, hypocrite, Octavian,

Malcolm Collins: yes.

Simone Collins: He did

Malcolm Collins: inherit from,

Simone Collins: I'm really like. We named our son Octavian. I love this guy, but I'm, I'm getting, I'm just my patience right now. No, Octavian is such

Malcolm Collins: a dope character in history.

You wish to be console. It's a vanity. I know, but I think I deserve it and it would please my men.

You are 19. You're too young to be a senator. Leave alone. Cons, my dear boy. You have no experience. You have no connections. He has an army. We'll see if it's possible. The, if you were to be [00:16:00] counsel. You must promise to be guided by my council. It is an office of high complexity, and I'm well aware of my inexperience. I will not utter a word without your advice, your consent.

Malcolm Collins: If you have not seen the, he's just, this

Simone Collins: is his one failing.

Everyone gets their foibles. I get it.

Malcolm Collins: If you watch this show and you ever take recommendations on things to watch from this show, like, and you're like, oh, you know, sometimes you talk about an anime or whatever. No. But like, number one I'd suggest is the Rome miniseries TV show.

Simone Collins: Oh man.

Malcolm Collins: If you like the show, you will likely really like that TV series.

, the Roman people are not crying out for clean elections. They're crying out for jobs. They're crying out for clean water, for food, for stability and peace. You can do great things for your people. You can help save the republic

Malcolm Collins: I'd say if you like the original Gladiator, you'll like that TV series.

Simone Collins: [00:17:00] Yeah. That's, that's, that's a fair, that's fair.

Malcolm Collins: I actually, I don't think I've ever heard a single person say, I did not like the Rome miniseries.

Simone Collins: Yeah, that's, that's a known, I haven't, but also I haven't found that many people who watched it.

But I think what's interesting here, and this is just. What he missed clearly, and this just shows up in his statements. It, it shows up in the legislation largely that statutory, you know, money related stuff, it's just not enough to move the needle. You have to change the culture because when you contrast these Roman birth rates with early Christian birth rates, like, it just, it's, it's super clear.

In this historical case, at least though we've pointed out plenty of other contemporary examples of this, that. For trying to manipulate people using money or other carrots and sticks just isn't

Malcolm Collins: so, yeah. For, for more on this, by the way, you can see our video was early [00:18:00] Christianity. Really more moral.

It goes over why early Christian birth rates were so much higher and presented argument that Christianity became the dominant religion. Not through conversions primarily, but just through having a higher survival and birth rate.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm.

Malcolm Collins: But to keep going here. Mechanism, if a tester left property to an unmarried person that bequest became CaTECH forfeit to the state or to relatives with children.

So even if, if you wanted to give your property to someone, it would automatically then go to the state or to other relatives who had children who put placed claim on it. Hmm.

Example, if a will be clea 100,000 tices to an unmarried friend, the friend could not inherit the sum, would instead go to the tester's, relatives with children, or if nonexistent the state, four, childless, married, or be.

Restrictions, childless, married couples could inherit, but only half of what was bequeathed to them. The other half became cchu. The following, the above rules. So somebody could try to give you money, but it would, it would go to other people or the state mechanism. The forfeited portion would go to the state or those with [00:19:00] children.

For parents, those with children face no such restrictions and enjoyed full inheritance. Right. Plus additional social and legal benefits if they had three or more children. I actually like the idea of re bringing this in with,

Simone Collins: see, I No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I, I, I really, really, really think it should be progressive income tax breaks num after you have more than two kids.

I what you're, they're doing here, and this is just so dumb. Is they're making it all about inheritance. It's, it's about this like lump sum later and it's clear that now probably past. Past, well, you can

Malcolm Collins: do both. The reason why inheritance is so powerful is because it conceptualizes the purpose of kids of paying to the future, the debt that you owe the past.

If you're not paying to the future, then you do not. Deserve any of the accumulated wealth of the past who did make this sacrifice? Mm. You are cashing in on society basically where everyone, I get

Simone Collins: the poeticness. It's just that people don't,

Malcolm Collins: the poetic poems, people [00:20:00] contextualize and keep in mind it overly motivates people with better to have more kids because they are going to be the people set to inherit the most money.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

Malcolm Collins: So sorry. Not that human gene pools are different. I'm just saying that if you're viewing prenatal from the perspective of likelihood to pay into the tax system and you use that as better, these people are more likely to pay into the tax system more money. If they have more money, you know, sort of writing on that.

And I'd put it at replacement rate. If you're not at replacement rate, you can only inherit half of the estate and the other half goes to the state or relatives who have above replacement kids. Hmm. And if you are above replacement rate, then you can't inherit the full amount.

I note that the other reason why the inheritance law is so much better than Jesse, the progressive tax break, is it?

Puts a strong motivation to get married and have kids earlier. Because there's this risk that, oh, well I was planning to have kids, but my parents died before then.

Simone Collins: Oh, oh yeah. What if they kick the bucket unexpectedly and then you lose everything?

Malcolm Collins: [00:21:00] Yes. So you sort of have this constant gamble every year.

You're not getting married.

Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And what it might do, the way I would likely structure it is the money goes into an escrow for like five years after the person dies to give you time to get married, or it goes, if you die before the age of, let's say 23, it goes into escrow until five years after 23 to give you time to find someone to marry.

Simone Collins: Or if you die, when your children are in the age of minority, you should wait until they're at least 25 before the money gets forfeit.

Malcolm Collins: That's exactly what I just said.

Simone Collins: I thought you were saying that applied to. Older people, like if you're, no, I'd say

Malcolm Collins: it applies to older people and people under the age of 23.

So you get five years after you turn 23, so even more than you turn. Oh, okay.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So 28, it goes into escrow. If you, if you if the parents kick the bucket before 23 and then if it's after 23, you get a five year escrow period to find a spouse.

Simone Collins: Okay. And

Malcolm Collins: start having kids. Hmm. [00:22:00] Size of the fines. Contrary to modern notions of fines, augustus's laws did not impose direct monetary penalties.

EEG fixed some paid as a tax. Instead, the financial consequences were indirect embedded in the loss of inheritance rights. No there is no clear evidence of a specific tax like the Asima celibacy tax under Augustus. Such managers may have emerged later. The can you imagine

Simone Collins: an incel tax today? Right?

An

Malcolm Collins: incel tax to add insult to injury, right? Yeah.

Simone Collins: Seriously.

Malcolm Collins: Effective financial penalty for the unmarried, the complete inability to inherit under most wills could represent a massive loss depending on the size of the estate. For example, losing a hundred thousand sesqui bequest was the equivalent to a fine amount.

And additional disadvantages. Unmarried men were also barred from certain public events and offices indirectly affecting their wealth and status. And keep in mind, for, for Rome, this would've caused the most noble families to have an additional incentive to get married and have kids early. Oh,

Simone Collins: yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Didn't work. Tual reason to do [00:23:00] this. Because you lose basically noble status and privileges if you don't. But it didn't work. It didn't work. Yeah. I know. Literary observations, Roman writers commented on the trend. For example, tus a historic writing in the second century ad noted the quote unquote childless sterilist.

Of the upper classes and linked it to a decline in noble families. Mm-hmm. Now I, I note here when you say it didn't work, I mean, I think we can see why it didn't work. It's because you have this strong counter pressure of women are the worst misogyny we've seen. Misogynistic societies generally really struggle to breed at above repopulation rate when they're in periods of wealth.

Misogyny only really works when you're in periods of you know, economic disadvantage in, in un economic systems where women can.

Simone Collins: Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: it does. It, it works within like ultra Orthodox Jewish communities. It works within ultra orthodox Muslim communities. You know, they do have higher fertility rates.

They are lessing now and I think that, that, that they may, no, I think they'll always stay. Okay. [00:24:00] So long as they don't engage with technology. Yeah. Adoption practices. The elite frequently resorted to adoption to secure heirs indicating a shortage of biological children. This was a common workaround for families unable to produce enough offspring to continue their lineage.

I. Anecdotes. Here are some specific examples that highlight the versatility struggles of prominent Roman elites, Augustus's family. Despite his push for procreation, Augusta himself had only one biological child, Julia, from his marriage with scr Bonia. Julia had five children, but political turmoil and pars limited their survival and succession.

Augustus adopted his sex, his stepson Tiberius as his heir reflecting how his own family's limited fertility. Yeah. The Claud family kind of

Simone Collins: failure man. She had five. You haven't had five kids yet. Okay. You're on five. But I mean like that, that your succession as you're like sort of starting out this hereditary line.

Is your stepson, who also just didn't turn it to be that great of an em, even though his name is so [00:25:00] good. It's such a shame. I don't know. I'm really frustrated about it. I'm, I'm very, I like Tiberius as a name for kid. I know, but he didn't do a very good job, and that frustrates me. You don't get to ruin a good name like that.

You know what I mean?

Malcolm Collins: The Claud and family the Jen's, Claudia, a powerful aristocratic clan, also faced challenges. Emperor Claudia's 41 to 45 AD had four children across his marriages, but two died young. And his errors were often adopted, or from other lines, showing the difficulty of maintaining direct descent, Cicero's family.

Here's this other thing though, and I think

Simone Collins: this is, this is important. There could also be kind of this un unstated issue of kids kind of hating their parents. Like, I'm not getting, you know. The, oh, yeah. A lot of

Malcolm Collins: Roman emperors had a lot of kids who were like party animals or hated them or whatever. Yeah.

Simone Collins: Or like, who tried, wasn't it Niro, who had these amazing attempts to kill his mother? That was Niro, right? Yes,

Malcolm Collins: he did. Yeah. One of my favorite Niro attempts is he sent his mother, and I actually think I really wanna make a, a comedy that's like, you know, the Catherine the Great show. [00:26:00] Oh yeah. But this is just about me, Nero trying to kill us.

What about Nero? And in his mom. Yeah. 'cause I think it would be absolutely hilarious. One of these shows about like, just horrible people. Everyone around him was the worst conceivable human you could imagine. My favorite example of this is he a boat set his mom's boat out and he, he, he broke it.

Way before it went out, so it would crack when she got out into deeper waters. Yeah. And she was out with a servant who was rowing her, so the boat

Simone Collins: cracks. And yeah, her female servant in an attempt to save herself because she, her, she too was a terrible person. She too was a terrible person. Save me, I'm the emperor's mother, and then I'm the worst.

They killed her, I think, with an or, right? Yeah. They, the, the, the rescuers went out and

Malcolm Collins: beat her to death with an OR because they told to do. But the mother being smarter, sweats to shore idiot, uh uh, servant, save me. Save me. I'm the real [00:27:00] empress. And it's just like, come upends and come upends for everyone being a terrible human garbage people.

Yes. It's so crazy

Simone Collins: garbage. We have like the, there's this also common theme. In Roman dramas of, of inter-family conflict?

Malcolm Collins: No, I don't think they had a good mechanisms for passing culture onto their kids. Yeah. Because likely what happened is, similar to today, mimetic viruses had arose, was in these communities that benefited from turning children against their parents.

And, and many of these viruses used hedonism to pull them out. And so the question is, is how do you motivate. And you know, something that can, that can you know, withstand this.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: So anyway, Cicero's family Marcus Tulia, Cicero, a leading statement in the Republic, died 43 BC, had just two children, Marcus and Tulia.

His son Marcus, had no errors and Tulia died Young ending Cicero's direct line. This reflects a pattern of small families among the elite and give you mind. Many of these people were like. Ultra elite who we're talking about here. Yeah. [00:28:00] Yeah. We have no business having families that are this small. Yeah. These cases illustrate how even the most prominent Romans struggled to reproduce and sustain large families, often relying on adoption or facing lineage extinction.

So I asked it to. Estimate the TFR within the Roman elites? Rough estimate. Scholarly studies suggest TFR among the Roman elite may have been 1.5 to two children per woman. Mm-hmm. Which is below the replacement rate of approximately 2.1 needed to maintain a population without external growth. Mm-hmm.

In contrast, pre-industrial society, typically at TFR have four to six children per woman making the elites. Rate strikingly low influencing factors. High child mortality. Up to 50% of children in ancient room may have died before adulthood, meaning even families with high births might have seen Few survivals.

Yeah, late marriages. Elite men, often married in their thirties. And women though married younger, might have had fewer fertile years. Whiz older. Husbands and this was something that he tried to reduce in the law. But yeah. Marrying, if you're ultimately get the young wife, no, the young women need to go to the young men.

They're the fertile ones. [00:29:00] You are actively being like a problem for society if you're an old man marrying a young,

Simone Collins: yeah. Yeah. And that was another really common problem now that I think to. The historic marriages, it was just all these young women being married often really open,

Malcolm Collins: Contraception and abortion.

Romans likely use herbal contraceptives and abort effects. Though the evidence is sparse, potentially reducing birth rates further. Well, we know they practice exposure of infants that they didn't want, so. Like clearly this, this harmed them. You know, an interesting thing about ancient Greece in Rome, I dunno if you've heard, but the heart symbol that we have today that looks, you know, nothing like a heart came from a, a plant that was likely used for abortions.

Oh my goodness. Or not abortions, but like contraception. Well, some,

Simone Collins: some historic texts. I'll just, I just wanna note. Suggest that some of the abortion techniques utilized by women, probably depending, like if it was like later in, in their pregnancy, were risky, such that maybe you would die in your attempt to poison your unborn child.

So, for example, that the example of that one when Spartan king who [00:30:00] told the, like, dowager queen who'd been, you know, widowed to don't, you know, don't. Don't hurt yourself trying to abort the child, have the child and then it'll expose it. So that implies that some of their methods were dangerous to the mother too, which would explain higher rates of exposure, though they probably had more effective

Malcolm Collins: methods earlier.

The interesting thing about this plant that I'm talking about here that had a leaf shaped like a heart Yeah. Is one, it's funny that they're like, this is how they viewed love, like sex.

Simone Collins: Like the Plan B pill being like the theme of of, of Valentine's Day cards. Right. Well, I mean, is it not, was like the little

Malcolm Collins: smart things, but anyway but this plant was driven to extinction.

We don't, oh my God, we don't have it in these regions anymore. That's how much they love their, their, you know, amazing. But I can totally see something used for like, anytime you see it, you're like, oh, I'm gonna take some of that. Yeah. Be prepared nutri. Be prepared. So why were birth rates so low?

Several socioeconomic lifestyle choices. The elites prioritize political career as well and [00:31:00] status over raising large families. Elite women may have limited pregnancies to preserve their health or social roles, economic costs, raising children in the upper classes with expensive or acquiring education, dowries and upkeep of social standing, which may the classic issue today.

Simone Collins: Yeah, exactly

Malcolm Collins: what we're dealing with today. Mm-hmm. And, which is why I've said you've got to learn to lower the cost both temporarily and in terms of effort of having kids. Yeah. And social pressures. The competitive nature of Roman politics and the instability of the late Roman the Republic and Early Empire eeg.

Civil Wars Pros may have made large families less appealing or practical.

Yeah, Sue. That's it. That's the, that's the whole of what I was able to learn about childless Romans. Did this change your mind on anything?

Simone Collins: Well, now I know where, you know, Augustus fell short. I mean, I, I always felt like something had really gone wrong in general with his, his succession planning. And I think that now that general sentiment extends [00:32:00] to just basically his ability for generational transfer.

I don't wanna, you know, like he's, he's an amazing dude, amazing achievements. I just and now I'm like, okay, no, no one's perfect. No one's perfect. Yeah. At least you weren't, you know, neuro can't even kill your own mom. The first time she was, who was to try multiple times, but also like the number of insane and dramatic Roman assassinations.

It's almost like there was this unspoken rule that you couldn't just kill someone. You had to kill them dramatically. You had to do it. In an epic fashion. I think it, it, it, it just kind of signals to me this, this level of performative drama and psychosis that Roman culture had arrived at. Where they like couldn't do anything in a reasonable and pragmatic manner, they couldn't raise.

It reminds me

Malcolm Collins: so much of modern progressive culture. If you go to like, I think it would be a great representation of, of Y Niro's constantly wanting to be around celebrity and then a celebrity is too popular, so he has him killed because he [00:33:00] wants to be the most popular. Yeah. And it really is, I think, the way people live in this ultra urban monoculture.

Another thing, oh,

Simone Collins: wanting to be accepted by a foreign culture.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, but he doesn't even really understand. Yeah. He wanted the

Simone Collins: Greeks

Malcolm Collins: to like him, right?

Simone Collins: Yeah. No, he was like, I, I can master this amazing culture. Can't they just like me? Can't they just give me awards? Yeah. I don't know. Just there's lot of, but anyway, so

Malcolm Collins: I or we might be thinking there of somebody else.

We

Simone Collins: might Bero

Malcolm Collins: romance. No,

Simone Collins: no, no, no, no. Niro was the one who's like, I I want to be a Greek master of this. And Yeah. No, no. That was him. No, but he wasn't the one who was obsessed with

Malcolm Collins: becoming a gladiator. No, no. That was what's his face? Okay. It started with a C, but anyway but I will note when I'm looking at this and I'm like, oh, it's sort of sad.

Like this means I'm almost certainly not related to or descendant of any of the famous Romans. And then I was like it's funny, the, the, the royalty that I do have direct succession of one of them at least, I, I always think it's funny because I, every like, almost every single backwoods Scottish American I have met is.

Is related to this guy. It's, it's Robert the [00:34:00] Bruce, by the way. The, the guy from the Braveheart movie. Yeah. I am also a direct descendant of his wasn't he killed? I thought

Simone Collins: he didn't have any kids. Did he have kids? No. Robert the

Malcolm Collins: Bruce, I, I decided to google how many kids he had because I was like, how could it be that so many people are direct descendants of him?

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: He had 12 kids. Oh, okay. Well, 12 surviving kids. So yeah, that explains why so many people by the other, there's one

Simone Collins: woman.

Malcolm Collins: I think so. I think so.

Simone Collins: Good for her.

Malcolm Collins: The other monarchs I have director sent from are Charlemagne and old King Cole I, I'm, I'm related to like way more religious figures. Like, another direct in is is John Knox. Well, and what

Simone Collins: about Oliver Cromwell?

Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: potentially Oliver Cromwell, but that's not confirmed. I am descendant from Egg Oliver Cromwell that lived around that time period from our family records, but I can't confirm it is the Oliver Cromwell.

Simone Collins: And all I get is George Washington as an uncle. That's embarrassing.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah. You, you get the George Washington siblings.

He didn't have any kids himself, but she's a director, center of siblings. People are like, why do you know all this stuff? It's because my family is obsessed with genealogy. Yeah. And when you [00:35:00] start going that far back, you're basically related to everyone. Yeah. You know, and, and, and the world was

Simone Collins: not very big.

Malcolm Collins: Well, no. Especially the famous people you've gotta keep in mind because you're multiplying every time you go back, like by two people. Mm-hmm. And the famous people, all you need to do is connect yourself to somebody who can prove they were descended from one of the famous people. Mm-hmm. And then you can go back like 15 generations because, and you know, they

Simone Collins: won't shut up about that.

I mean, I'm sure like back in the day it's. Like, oh, you know, you're descended from Robin. Like it, it's, they made the same jokes that they make today about marathon runners. Well, you don't need

Malcolm Collins: everyone to do it. You just need one crazy person who is obsessed with this that you can prove you're connected to.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Except there, you know, a lot of the Braveheart myths were, weren't they kind of written by a Scottish family that never knew him and lived after he died and was like, we're gonna write a bunch of stories so that people think we're cool. Whatever. They made a good movie.

Malcolm Collins: Bravehearts a f*****g amazing movie.

Great.

Simone Collins: If you're watching

Malcolm Collins: this and you haven't seen Braveheart, sorry, even more than Rome. If you're watching, if you haven't seen Gray Hart, what is wrong with you? Good soundtrack. Yeah. Great [00:36:00] soundtrack. Very moving movie. Very based, well most based movie. Bring back Braveheart hair. I say they're, they're, they got in so much trouble for the scene where the

Simone Collins: and like

Malcolm Collins: modern times where they, the prince has a, a gay lover and the king is like, oh, you're so good at strategy here.

Why don't you, why don't you tell me? Strategy walks into a window and throws them out. And the sun's like. Like mortified. And a lot of people have been like, that's horrified. But that's the way Kings would've treated something like that historically. Like, what are we supposed to do? Pretend like the King of England and the Middle Ages was accepting of gay people.

Like no, he wanted heirs and he was obsessed with this. Mm.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Anyway,

Malcolm Collins: anyway, anyway. I love we're making

Simone Collins: you pot stickers tonight. You re

Malcolm Collins: my curry tonight.

Simone Collins: Oh, crumbs. Yes. Well, would you like some supplemental pot stickers? Because it's not a whole lot of food.

Malcolm Collins: I mean, I think it is actually a pretty big amount that needs to be reheated.

Okay. I did make You're decent

Simone Collins: serving. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Okay. I'm okay with that. And I, oh, yeah, [00:37:00] because I've

Simone Collins: added a bunch of. Seasoned ground beef to it.

Malcolm Collins: Oh. So yeah, gimme that and some pot stickers and I'll be fine. So you do want pot stickers? Yes, I do want pot stickers.

Simone Collins: Okay. He changed his mind, his tummy grew a little bit.

Malcolm Collins: Well, you know what, you're cute. And that's your problem. Oh. And I don't know why I'm still married to you. I, no,

Happy to to you now. Make your wish.

I love to love you, everybody. And I love, and I loved it and, and I love you. Oh, good job friend. We just talked about everything you love. Hey, that is wonderful. Hey, so I love Octa. See love. I love my family. See? Really sweet. See the video. Really sweet. Thank you.