Michael Lewis On DOGE's Victims

Mar 14, 2025

Michael Lewis, bestselling author of engaging nonfiction works like Liar's Poker and Moneyball, dives deep into the challenges faced by government workers. He discusses the damaging effects of DOGE on effective programs and sheds light on public servants who prioritize service over higher pay. With captivating stories, Lewis debunks misconceptions about fraud in government and emphasizes the critical role of civil servants amidst political inefficiencies. His insights reveal a stark contrast between the needs of public service and the whims of political narratives.

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INSIGHT

A Timely Book

Michael Lewis, known for timely books, has written "Who is Government?".
The book features essays profiling often-overlooked public servants.

ANECDOTE

Finding Chris Mark

Michael Lewis found compelling government worker stories easily, just as he did while writing "The Fifth Risk".
He found a former coal miner, Chris Mark, who revolutionized mine safety.

ANECDOTE

The Marks, Father and Son

Chris Mark's father was an expert on Gothic cathedral roof stability.
Chris rebelled, became a coal miner, and dedicated his career to mine safety, mirroring his father's work.

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Michael Lewis is the best nonfiction writer in America — and an old friend. He’s the bestselling author of Liar’s Poker, Moneyball, The Blind Side, and Flash Boys. He was on the Dishcast four years ago to discuss The Premonition: A Pandemic Story, and his new book is Who Is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service — a collection of essays by Michael and others about the federal workers now under assault by Elon Musk. Michael has a preternatural ability to sense what we want to read about when we want to read about it. This book is no exception.

For two clips of our convo — on DOGE killing effective programs, and the calculated trauma imposed on federal workers — pop over to our YouTube page.

Other topics: how civil servants forgo bigger salaries from the private sector; how they don’t take public credit; the awards known as Sammies; the guy who revolutionized mine safety; the IRS worker who fought sex trafficking; how fraud in government is actually quite small; how Trump ignores his daily briefing; his fabulist psyche; his drive for retribution; Vought and the unitary executive; scaring workers to control them; firing the inspectors general; gutting the National Weather Service; the savior culture of USAID; the bipartisan miracle of PEPFAR; how 86% of the debt is interest + entitlements + defense that DOGE can’t affect; Musk’s ignorance on basic civics; the secrecy of DOGE; the Founders’ hatred of monarchy; Trump’s tax cuts; impending inflation; “Blame Canada”; Rubio and the Khalil case; my own green card; Vance in Germany; vilifying Zelensky; the brilliance of Thatcher; Ross Perot’s run; the Clinton/Gore downsizing; Newsom’s tack to the center; the promise of Polis and Fetterman; and stories from TNR in the ‘90s.

Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy (the first 102 are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Nick Denton on China’s inevitable world domination, Evan Wolfson on the history of marriage equality, Francis Collins on faith and science, Douglas Murray on Israel and Gaza, and the genius filmmaker Mike White. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.