In an engaging conversation, Jeff Sebo, an Associate Professor at NYU with a focus on ethics and animal rights, explores the moral implications of our responsibilities toward non-human beings. He discusses the moral circle and its expansion beyond just humans. The landmark case of Happy the elephant prompts a debate on legal personhood for animals. Sebo delves into consciousness, AI ethics, and human exceptionalism, urging us to reevaluate our roles as custodians of the Earth while envisioning a future where humanity and nature coexist harmoniously.
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Happy the Elephant
Happy the Elephant's case questions legal personhood for animals.
The New York Court of Appeals ruled against Happy, fearing broader implications.
insights INSIGHT
Shifting Perspectives on Animal Consciousness
Historically, Western thought placed humans above other beings, like Descartes' view of animals as machines.
Modern science and philosophy are increasingly recognizing animal consciousness.
question_answer ANECDOTE
The LaMDA Case
A Google engineer, Blake Lemoine, claimed an AI, LaMDA, was sentient.
Google dismissed the claim and later fired Lemoine.
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Thomas Nagel's essay "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" is a seminal work in philosophy of mind. It explores the subjective nature of consciousness and the challenges of understanding other minds. Nagel argues that even with complete physical knowledge of a bat's brain, we cannot fully grasp its subjective experience. This essay highlights the limitations of reductionist approaches to consciousness. It continues to be a central text in discussions about qualia, subjective experience, and the mind-body problem.
Jim talks with Jeff Sebo about the ideas in his book The Moral Circle: Who Matters, What Matters, and Why. They discuss the concept of the moral circle, harming cats vs harming cars, the case study of Happy the elephant, Descartes' view of animals, phenomenal consciousness, Thomas Nagel's bat argument, the Google engineer who claimed LaMDA was conscious, the substrate dependence of consciousness, a factory waste disposal dilemma, animal rescue triage scenarios, probability calculations in moral consideration, the "one in a thousand" threshold, computational constraints in moral calculations, human exceptionalism & its limitations, fully automated luxury communism & rewilding Earth, responsibilities to wild animals, humans as a custodial species, and much more.
Episode Transcript
The Moral Circle: Who Matters, What Matters, and Why, by Jeff Sebo
"What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" by Thomas Nagel
Saving Animals, Saving Ourselves: Why Animals Matter for Pandemics, Climate Change, and other Catastrophes, by Jeff Sebo
Ethics and the Environment, by Dale Jamieson
Jeff Sebo is Associate Professor of Environmental Studies, Affiliated Professor of Bioethics, Medical Ethics, Philosophy, and Law, Director of the Center for Environmental and Animal Protection, Director of the Center for Mind, Ethics, and Policy, and Co-Director of the Wild Animal Welfare Program at New York University. His research focuses on animal minds, ethics, and policy; AI minds, ethics, and policy; and global health and climate ethics and policy. He is the author of The Moral Circle and Saving Animals, Saving Ourselves and co-author of Chimpanzee Rights and Food, Animals, and the Environment. He is also a board member at Minding Animals International, an advisory board member at the Insect Welfare Research Society, and a senior affiliate at the Institute for Law & AI. In 2024 Vox included him on its Future Perfect 50 list of "thinkers, innovators, and changemakers who are working to make the future a better place."
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