The Human Risk Podcast Anne Sebba on The Women's Orchestra of Auschwitz
Apr 18, 2025
01:06:15
Why was there a women’s orchestra in Auschwitz, and what can that help us understand human resilience?
In this deeply moving episode of the show, I speak with Anne Sebba — renowned biographer, historian, and journalist — about one of the Holocaust’s most extraordinary and little-known stories: the Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz.
Anne’s latest book tells the story of how a group of female prisoners were forced to form an orchestra in one of the most brutal Nazi concentration camps. They played not for celebration or escape, but as part of the machinery of terror — and yet, through music, they found a way to survive.
As Anne shares, her journey into this story began with a startling personal discovery: her father was present at Bergen-Belsen shortly after its liberation. That visceral connection led her to uncover the story of Alma Rosé, the orchestra’s conductor and the niece of Gustav Mahler, who used discipline and musical brilliance to save lives.
We talk about the complexities of human behaviour, the ethical dilemmas of survival, and the way music — even when twisted into a tool of torture — remained a powerful expression of the human spirit.
We also explore how Anne approached telling this story as someone who is neither a survivor nor the child of survivors. She explains the challenges of working with conflicting testimonies, the emotional toll of researching this subject, and why she took piano lessons while writing the book.
Above all, this episode is about the resilience of the women who played in the orchestra, and the importance of telling stories that allow us to see history not just in abstract terms, but through individual lives.
👤 About My Guest: Anne Sebba
Anne Sebba is a bestselling biographer, historian, and former Reuters foreign correspondent. She describes herself as a “writer of compelling stories about iconic women,” and has written extensively about women in the 20th century, including Les Parisiennes, That Woman: The Life of Wallis Simpson, and Ethel Rosenberg: A Cold War Tragedy. Her latest work explores the story of the Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz.
Anne is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and speaks regularly on women’s history and the ethics of storytelling. Her official website is www.annesebba.com.
🕰️ AI-Generated Episode Timestamps
[00:00:00] Introduction to Anne Sebba and the Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz
[00:01:00] How Anne discovered the story and its personal connection
[00:04:00] Anne’s father's presence at Belsen and discovering his handwritten notes
[00:07:00] Why her father never spoke about the war
[00:10:00] Individual stories as a way to process historical horrors
[00:13:00] Interviews with survivors and the challenge of conveying memory
[00:15:00] Navigating the wealth of material and ethical responsibility
[00:18:00] Using memoirs, archives, and testimony
[00:21:00] Anne’s personal journey: taking piano lessons for research
[00:24:00] Music as a tool of torture and as resistance
[00:26:00] The Nazi logic behind having an orchestra in Auschwitz
[00:30:00] How Alma Rosé transformed the orchestra
[00:34:00] Alma’s strict standards and her life-saving leadership
[00:39:00] How tensions within the orchestra reflected broader dynamics
[00:44:00] Spotlight on Hélène (Hilda) and her moral clarity
[00:48:00] The absence of clear moral choices in the camp
[00:51:00] The psychological legacy and postwar trauma
[00:54:00] Antisemitism and internal tensions in the orchestra
[00:57:00] Were there moments of humanity among perpetrators?
[01:01:00] What lessons have — or haven’t — we learned from history?
[01:03:00] Anne on future work and how she finds her stories
[01:05:00] Closing thoughts
🔗 Resources & Links
Anne Sebba’s official website: www.annesebba.com
The Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz by Anne Sebba https://www.weidenfeldandnicolson.co.uk/titles/anne-sebba/the-women%E2%80%99s-orchestra-of-auschwitz/9781399610735/
Yad Vashem: www.yadvashem.org
Shoah Foundation Archive: sfi.usc.edu/vha
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: www.ushmm.org
Alma Rosé on Wikipedia: Alma Rosé
Alma Rosé playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQVyd2dz1rk
Bergen-Belsen Liberation: The Liberation Of Bergen-Belsen 15 April 1945 - The Holocaust | IWM
In this deeply moving episode of the show, I speak with Anne Sebba — renowned biographer, historian, and journalist — about one of the Holocaust’s most extraordinary and little-known stories: the Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz.
Anne’s latest book tells the story of how a group of female prisoners were forced to form an orchestra in one of the most brutal Nazi concentration camps. They played not for celebration or escape, but as part of the machinery of terror — and yet, through music, they found a way to survive.
As Anne shares, her journey into this story began with a startling personal discovery: her father was present at Bergen-Belsen shortly after its liberation. That visceral connection led her to uncover the story of Alma Rosé, the orchestra’s conductor and the niece of Gustav Mahler, who used discipline and musical brilliance to save lives.
We talk about the complexities of human behaviour, the ethical dilemmas of survival, and the way music — even when twisted into a tool of torture — remained a powerful expression of the human spirit.
We also explore how Anne approached telling this story as someone who is neither a survivor nor the child of survivors. She explains the challenges of working with conflicting testimonies, the emotional toll of researching this subject, and why she took piano lessons while writing the book.
Above all, this episode is about the resilience of the women who played in the orchestra, and the importance of telling stories that allow us to see history not just in abstract terms, but through individual lives.
👤 About My Guest: Anne Sebba
Anne Sebba is a bestselling biographer, historian, and former Reuters foreign correspondent. She describes herself as a “writer of compelling stories about iconic women,” and has written extensively about women in the 20th century, including Les Parisiennes, That Woman: The Life of Wallis Simpson, and Ethel Rosenberg: A Cold War Tragedy. Her latest work explores the story of the Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz.
Anne is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature and speaks regularly on women’s history and the ethics of storytelling. Her official website is www.annesebba.com.
🕰️ AI-Generated Episode Timestamps
[00:00:00] Introduction to Anne Sebba and the Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz
[00:01:00] How Anne discovered the story and its personal connection
[00:04:00] Anne’s father's presence at Belsen and discovering his handwritten notes
[00:07:00] Why her father never spoke about the war
[00:10:00] Individual stories as a way to process historical horrors
[00:13:00] Interviews with survivors and the challenge of conveying memory
[00:15:00] Navigating the wealth of material and ethical responsibility
[00:18:00] Using memoirs, archives, and testimony
[00:21:00] Anne’s personal journey: taking piano lessons for research
[00:24:00] Music as a tool of torture and as resistance
[00:26:00] The Nazi logic behind having an orchestra in Auschwitz
[00:30:00] How Alma Rosé transformed the orchestra
[00:34:00] Alma’s strict standards and her life-saving leadership
[00:39:00] How tensions within the orchestra reflected broader dynamics
[00:44:00] Spotlight on Hélène (Hilda) and her moral clarity
[00:48:00] The absence of clear moral choices in the camp
[00:51:00] The psychological legacy and postwar trauma
[00:54:00] Antisemitism and internal tensions in the orchestra
[00:57:00] Were there moments of humanity among perpetrators?
[01:01:00] What lessons have — or haven’t — we learned from history?
[01:03:00] Anne on future work and how she finds her stories
[01:05:00] Closing thoughts
🔗 Resources & Links
Anne Sebba’s official website: www.annesebba.com
The Women’s Orchestra of Auschwitz by Anne Sebba https://www.weidenfeldandnicolson.co.uk/titles/anne-sebba/the-women%E2%80%99s-orchestra-of-auschwitz/9781399610735/
Yad Vashem: www.yadvashem.org
Shoah Foundation Archive: sfi.usc.edu/vha
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum: www.ushmm.org
Alma Rosé on Wikipedia: Alma Rosé
Alma Rosé playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQVyd2dz1rk
Bergen-Belsen Liberation: The Liberation Of Bergen-Belsen 15 April 1945 - The Holocaust | IWM