The Lawfare Podcast Lawfare Daily: The Limits of Cyber Subversion, with Lennart Maschmeyer
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Jul 17, 2024 
Lennart Maschmeyer discusses subversion as a tool of power, the impact of cyber capabilities, challenges in evaluating cyber subversion success, and the limitations of using it for regime change. The conversation highlights the need for a balanced approach in understanding cyber capabilities.
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Subversion as an Instrument of Power
- Subversion, distinct from war and diplomacy, involves covert manipulation.
- It exploits system vulnerabilities and human weaknesses for the sponsor's benefit.
Subversion Mechanism
- Subversion's core mechanism is infiltrating social systems, like institutions or groups, with spies.
- These spies gain influence, manipulate the system, and benefit the sponsor without overt force.
Cyber Operations and War Analogies
- The Stuxnet virus was called a "cyber cruise missile", illustrating the tendency to use war analogies.
- SolarWinds, an espionage operation, was compared to an "act of war" despite lacking violence.