The Lawfare Podcast

Lawfare Daily: The Limits of Cyber Subversion, with Lennart Maschmeyer

Jul 17, 2024

Lennart Maschmeyer discusses subversion as a tool of power, the impact of cyber capabilities, challenges in evaluating cyber subversion success, and the limitations of using it for regime change. The conversation highlights the need for a balanced approach in understanding cyber capabilities.

46:59

Creator website

Episode guests

Lennart Maschmeyer

AI Summary

AI Chapters

Episode notes

Podcast summary created with Snipd AI

Quick takeaways

Subversion bridges warfare and diplomacy, shaping conflicts subtly through covert manipulation of social systems.

Cyber operations, despite high expectations, often fall short in effectively influencing adversaries in modern conflict scenarios.

Deep dives

Exploration of the Rationale for Writing the Book

The book explores the expectation of a revolution in conflict due to the information revolution, leading to the exploration of cyber capabilities in conflict. The initial intent was to study this revolution but evolved to focus on subversion, revealing that the analogy to traditional warfare doesn't fully apply to cyber operations.

Intro

2min

Exploring Cyber Subversion and Traditional Warfare

14min

Analyzing Different Strategies of Cyber Subversion and Assessing Their Success

4min

Maintaining Work Productivity, Mobile Plan Price Reduction, and Benefits of Meal Kits

4min

Challenges and Limitations of Cyber Subversion in Regime Change

22min

Challenging the Hype and Understanding Cyber Capabilities

6min

Eugenia Lostri, Lawfare's Fellow in Technology Policy and Law, talks with with Lennart Maschmeyer, Senior Researcher at the Center for Security Studies at ETH Zurich, about his new book, “Subversion: From Covert Operations to Cyber Conflict.” The book explores how subversion works and what its strategic value is, and how technological change alters its reach and quality. They talked about the promise of subversion as an instrument of power, the tradeoffs required for covert operations, and how current doctrine should consider cyber capabilities.

To receive ad-free podcasts, become a Lawfare Material Supporter at www.patreon.com/lawfare. You can also support Lawfare by making a one-time donation at https://givebutter.com/c/trumptrials.

Support this show http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare.

Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.