Renowned computer scientist and idiosyncratic grump, Edsger Wybe Dijkstra, discusses his influential 'Go To Considered Harmful' paper and its impact. They debate the use of 'go to' statements in programming and explore concepts like coordinate systems in programs. The harmful aspects of go to statements and dependency injection are also discussed. They highlight the value of the elder generation in shaping technology and reflect on code styles and building something new. The podcast also covers scar tissue in bureaucracy and the differences between podcasting and radio.
The harm in relinquishing programmer responsibility in favor of a process or a product-oriented approach within the agile movement.
The value of elders' perspectives who witnessed the birth and evolution of computers and their potential to help understand the nature of computers.
The uniqueness of podcasting as a medium and the need to embrace its distinct characteristics instead of imitating traditional radio formats.
The limitations and failures of existing visual programming systems, hindering the development of a viable alternative to textual programming.
The need for diversity in programming practices to foster innovation and explore new approaches like visual programming.
The hindrance of polarizing debates on static versus dynamic typing, limiting meaningful discussions on the benefits and trade-offs of different type systems.
Deep dives
Dependency injection considered harmful
Dependency injection makes code harder to understand and introduces unnecessary complexity.
Interfaces in business apps considered harmful
Using interfaces in business applications leads to unnecessary abstractions and can make code harder to follow.
Visual programming considered harmful
Existing visual programming systems have not been successful and do not offer a viable alternative to textual programming.
Co-pilot considered harmful
Co-pilot makes textual programming more comfortable, further cementing its dominance and hindering the development of visual programming.
Lack of diversity of thought considered harmful
Lack of diversity in programming practices limits innovation and stifles progress in exploring new approaches like visual programming.
Agile considered harmful
The agile movement has created a discourse that limits critical discussions and holds back the development of better software practices.
Type discipline considered harmful
The polarizing debates around static versus dynamic typing prevent meaningful discussions about the benefits and trade-offs of different type systems.
Discourse around programming concepts considered harmful
The dogmatic and cultish mentality that often dominates conversations about programming concepts hinders progress and prevents meaningful exploration of technical details.
The Harm of Agile Practices
The speaker argues that the way we conceive of agile practices is flawed and too systematized. They believe that the focus on values and retrospectives misses the mark and suggests a shift towards concrete understanding and unpacking of actions. The harm they see is the relinquishing of programmer responsibility in favor of a process or a product-oriented approach.
The Importance of Elder Generation
The podcast highlights the value of individuals from the elder generation who witnessed the birth and evolution of computers. These living memories provide valuable insights into the pre-computer era and the development of computers. The speaker expresses a lament about the transience of these individuals and emphasizes the significance of their contributions and their potential to help understand the nature of computers.
The Harm of Emulating Radio in Podcasting
The podcast argues against the emulation of radio in the podcasting medium. It highlights the distinct characteristics of podcasting, such as on-demand access and freedom from the constraints of radio schedules. The speaker encourages content creators to embrace the unique opportunities and possibilities offered by podcasting rather than trying to imitate traditional radio formats.
Go To Statement Considered Harmful is a solid classic entry in the X Considered Harmful metafiction genre, authored by renowned computer scientist and idiosyncratic grump, Edsger Wybe Dijkstra. Surprisingly (given the impact it's had) this is a minuscule speck of a paper, lasting only 1-ish pages, and it even digresses several times from the main point. Fear not! Jimmy and I spend the entirety of these two podcast hours thoroughly analyzing the paper, wringing every last drop of insight from it, speaking directly to how programming ought to be reimagined from the molten venture capital core on up. Yes indeed, this is another episode in the fine tradition of Future of Coding where we stay faithfully close to the text, we leave the second-order implications alone, and there's nothing more than that. Nothing portended, nothing changed.
Hest, which Jimmy is convinced that I refuse to call by name, or even talk about. He's clearly mistaken — and yet, I feel his philosophical force on my hand even now. Conundrum considered harmful.
"All Cretans are liars" doesn't have quite the ring of "dipping their breasts into the ripper", and is considered harmful.
Lu, Devine, William, Alex and Alex, Justin, Marcel, Peter, Matt, Blaine, Kevin, Nicki, Mae, Kate, Steve, Mitja, Philippa, Max, and everyone else who secretly said it like a swearword.
