The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast 532. A Dialogue So Dangerous, It Just Might Bring You Wisdom | John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall
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Mar 24, 2025 
In this discussion, John Vervaeke, an associate professor at the University of Toronto, known for his work on wisdom and meaning, and Jordan Hall, an entrepreneur with a knack for systems thinking, dive deep into the nature of conscience and moral challenges. They explore the importance of meaningful dialogue and personal transformation through conversations. Additionally, they tackle the dynamics of power, societal hierarchies, and the quest for higher values, illuminating the relationship between creativity, agency, and existential dilemmas.
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Conscience and Value Hierarchy
- Conscience indicates a vertical hierarchy of values, from proximal reasons to wider, unknowable ones.
- Exploring this hierarchy can be challenging, as questions get harder the higher you climb.
Relevance Realization
- Relevance realization involves origin (where am I?), orientation (my stance), and ostention (my focus).
- These elements configure our perspective and guide our engagement with the world, balancing control and responsiveness.
Sacrifice and Reality
- The true metanarrative is not self-sacrifice but sacrifice in service of what is most real.
- People sacrifice lower values to reach for something higher and more meaningful.
