People and Projects Podcast: Project Management Podcast

PPP 476 | This One Idea Could Radically Change How You Lead, with author Jim Ferrell

Sep 5, 2025

Jim Ferrell, author of *You and We* and co-founder of The Arbinger Institute, discusses transformative leadership insights. He emphasizes the shift from a self-focused to a relational mindset, highlighting that effective leadership hinges on how we relate to others. Ferrell introduces five levels of relation crucial for team dynamics and underscores the importance of trust, humility, and emotional connections in a world increasingly influenced by AI. This engaging conversation challenges listeners to rethink leadership through a relational lens, fostering collaboration and growth.

Ask episode

AI Snips

Chapters

Books

Transcript

Episode notes

ANECDOTE

Early Family Shaped His Focus

Jim Ferrell grew up in a large family and noticed early how relational dynamics can both unite and split people.
He wrote a Yale Law thesis on societal split and reconciliation, shaping his life's work on relation.

INSIGHT

Relation Is The Hidden Force

Relation is a pervasive reality like gravity that determines how people interact and perform together.
Jim Ferrell describes five levels of relation from division to compounding that shape organizational outcomes.

ADVICE

Measure And Raise Relational Levels

Map and measure relational levels across teams to see where connectivity is low or high.
If a relational level is strategically insufficient, intentionally raise that level with targeted work.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Get the app

Summary

In this episode, Andy interviews Jim Ferrell, author of You and We: A Relational Rethinking of Work, Life and Leadership. Andy has long been a big fan of Jim's work with The Arbinger Institute, authoring Leadership and Self-Deception and The Anatomy of Peace.

In this conversation, Jim unpacks his insights on how leaders can move from a self-focused to a relational mindset. Drawing from his new book, Jim explains why our effectiveness as leaders depends not just on what we do, but on how we view and relate to the people around us. The discussion explores what it means to be relational instead of transactional, how leaders can better navigate conflict, and the subtle ways our self-deceptions hinder growth. Jim also shares practical ideas for building trust, leading with humility, and focusing on outcomes that matter most. This episode is packed with thought-provoking insights that will challenge how you think about leadership, culture, and collaboration.

If you’re looking for insights on how to become a more relational leader and truly impact those you serve, this episode is for you!

Sound Bites

“Machines don't have to be great at relation, but they'll be great at everything else. And if we're lousy at relation ourselves, we won't have a job.”
"Those who can relate better, that's the uniquely human competitive advantage we bring to the marketplace."
"The top people spend most of their time on the relational work, not on the other stuff. So you see it happening already. That's all going to be accelerating."
“The most important part of the chart of any org chart is actually all the space in between the names and boxes, because that's where everything's happening, right?”
“We went from the body economy to the mind economy to now the heart economy.”
“Proximity is not necessarily closeness.”

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
01:55 Start of Interview
02:07 Jim Ferrell's Backstory and Early Influences
06:17 About Jim Writing Leadership and Self-Deception
08:57 Exploring the Concept of Relation vs. Relationships
10:07 The Five Levels of Relation
13:19 Managing Relation in Organizations
17:29 The Shift to the Heart Economy
20:00 Insights from the Book 'You and We'
27:00 Proximity vs. Closeness in Remote Work
29:08 The Power of Hydrogen and Oxygen
29:46 Remote vs. In-Person Work Dynamics
32:14 The Importance of Connectivity in Teams
33:14 Understanding Relational Space
34:35 Personal Stories of Relation
37:48 How Can We Discern Where We Are in the Levels? And Our Teams?
39:29 The Concept of Compounding in Relations
41:07 The Relational Leap
45:54 End of Interview
46:27 Andy Comments After the Interview
49:23 Outtakes

Learn More

You can learn more about Jim and his book at Withiii.com/youandwe.

For more learning on this topic, check out:

Episode 185 with Mitch Warner about the Arbinger book Leadership and Self-Deception.
Episode 356 with Eric Barker about why everything you know about relationships is mostly wrong.
Episode 459 with Adrian Kelly about identity and rethinking success.

Pass the PMP Exam This Year

If you or someone you know is thinking about getting PMP certified, we’ve put together a helpful guide called The 5 Best Resources to Help You Pass the PMP Exam on Your First Try. We’ve helped thousands of people earn their certification, and we’d love to help you too. It's totally free, and it's a great way to get a head start.

Just go to 5BestResources.PeopleAndProjectsPodcast.com to grab your copy. I’d love to help you get your PMP this year!

Join Us for LEAD52

I know you want to be a more confident leader–that’s why you listen to this podcast. LEAD52 is a global community of people like you who are committed to transforming their ability to lead and deliver. It’s 52 weeks of leadership learning, delivered right to your inbox, taking less than 5 minutes a week. And it’s all for free. Learn more and sign up at GetLEAD52.com. Thanks!

Thank you for joining me for this episode of The People and Projects Podcast!

Talent Triangle: Power Skills

Topics: Leadership, Project Management, Relationships, Trust, Relational Mindset, Conflict, Self-Deception, Self-Awareness, Influence, Humility, Collaboration, Culture, Authenticity

The following music was used for this episode:

Music: Echo by Alexander Nakarada License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license

Music: Fashion Corporate by Frank Schroeter License (CC BY 4.0): https://filmmusic.io/standard-license