TCC Podcast #400: Writing Your Nonfiction Book with Stephanie Chandler

*Boom* This is the 400th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. And our guest for this episode is the CEO of The Nonfiction Authors Association, Stephanie Chandler. She recently published the Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan and we thought it would be great to find out more about how to write, publish and launch a book into the world. Stephanie did not disappoint. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.   Stuff to check out: The Nonfiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan by Stephanie Chandler The Nonfiction Author Association The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground   Transcript: Rob Marsh: Before I introduce today’s guest and episode, this is the official 400th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. I’m not sure Kira and I ever envisioned this podcast going this long. In fact, other than wanting to have deep discussions that asked hard questions of expert copywriters, I’m not sure what we expected.  So many people have told us they are copywriters today because they were inspired by this podcast. Or by the stories our guests have shared. Or because they jumped into one of our programs designed to help them grow. So I just want to take this opportunity to thank you for making this podcast the world’s most popular copywriting podcast. And now on to today’s show… We’ve talked about writing a book on this podcast several times. But it’s one thing to want to write a book, and another thing to have the tools and plan to make it happen. So when I got a copy of The Non-fiction Book Marketing and Launch Plan, I thought we should probably interview the author on the podcast and dive into what it takes to write and launch a book. Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And for today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I talked with former copywriter and current CEO of the non-profit author’s association, Stephanie Chandler. Stephanie founded the Non-fiction author’s association, so she was the perfect person to talk to about this subject as well as when you should take a leap of faith you might not be ready for and what gets taken when thieves rob a bookstore.  But before we jump in with Stephanie…  There’s a question that clients ask before they decide whether something you write is worth paying a lot or a little for. That question is “Can I do this?” Most clients can write a blog post. Or an email. It might not be as good as the one you would write, but they could do a passable job. Those projects don’t feel all that valuable because clients can visualize themselves creating them. They’re not hard. Fewer clients think they can strategize and build an acquisition funnel. Or a sales page. Or a book. So these projects are more valuable to clients (which means you can charge more to do them). And almost no clients have the skills to manage sophisticated email marketing tools like Klavio, ActiveCampaign, or even ConvertKit. And if they do, they’re often too busy to do this work themselves. These skills are among the most valuable of all. So how do you add a skill like managing email marketing tools to your copywriting services? This week in The Copywriter Underground, we’ll show you. We’ve invited guest expert and email strategist Matt Brown to share exactly how to make sure your client’s emails get into their customer’s inboxes. And how to use this skill to set yourself apart from all the other “I-just-write-copy” copywriters out there. It’s a master class for all members of The Copywriter Underground and you can join us if you visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu today. But do it today, because if you’re listening to this a few days after the podcast comes out, it will be too late. Having these skills, makes getting hired by high-paying clients easier. But you have to opt in to get the training. And with that, let’s go to our interview with Stephanie. Kira Hug: Let's kick off with your story. How did you end up as a writer, CEO, and all the things that you're doing today? Stephanie Chandler: Yeah. I left the Silicon Valley back in 2003 and I opened a 2,800 square foot brick and mortar bookstore. in Sacramento, California, thinking I was going to write novels in the back office. Sounds like a really brilliant plan, right? But turns out I was a terrible fiction writer and I hated running retail store. And all I really wanted to do was be a writer. I just had known that my whole life and I didn't know how to make a living as a writer. So I actually started doing some copywriting and writing articles for local magazines and Long story short, I ended up selling that store and then I wrote my first book. I had an agent tell me, nobody knows who you are. You need to go build an audience. So I self-published the first book and then the next year I had an audience. I built a high traffic website and I got a book deal with Wiley and then I signed with an agent and sold a couple more books. Meanwhile, I had seen all these local authors with these poorly produced books. And I was speaking at writers conferences and nobody was really talking to those of us who write nonfiction. So in 2010, I launched the nonfiction writers conference completely online. And remember back then we weren't using zoom or Zen caster. We were dialing into a teleconference line for three days live. And, uh, I didn't know if people would come, but they did. And then each year they would say, how do we keep in touch when this is over? And so in 2013, the Nonfiction Authors Association was born from that. And I couldn't believe nobody was really talking to those of us who write nonfiction. And I saw a need and I filled it. And it was just really great luck to have found the path I feel like I was meant to be on. Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, seeing what you've accomplished since then in launching it. I mean, you have an event. I think you've got like, I don't know, 10, 15 books that you've written. You have done a ton in the space. It's amazing. You sort of have one of those writer careers where it's like, OK, well, if I can't write novels, I might as well have that career. So I'm jealous. I'm a little bit jealous of what you've accomplished. Stephanie Chandler: No, no, no. Don't be jealous. I mean, honestly, it was heartbreaking to realize I couldn't write fiction, right? I mean, imagine you guys had some propensity to want to write, right? And I just spent my entire life wishing I was a writer. And then you just kind of naturally think, well, I guess I should write fiction. And then you find out you're terrible at fiction. But you know what I love about nonfiction is that we get to teach. Yeah. Right. And so I'd always had a love for teaching. I actually set out, I thought I'd be an English teacher. And I did this U-turn and ended up in Silicon Valley in a soul sucking career. So it all worked out the way it was meant to. But yeah, follow the heart is where I'm at with that. Rob Marsh: I'm not yet ready to give up on my ideas for fiction, but I'm kind of there with you where writing nonfiction feels really good in a lot of ways. So before we even talk about all of the other stuff that you've done, maybe we can just take a couple of minutes and talk about the differences between fiction and nonfiction and why nonfiction might actually be a better fit for so many people, so many of us who actually want to write books. Stephanie Chandler: Yeah, especially in your copywriter community, right? Because I mean, nonfiction is true. It's real life. It's memoir. It's how-to books. It's history. It's science. It's medical books. It's all those things. Whereas fiction is fake. I always remember that as a kid. Fiction is fake. It's made up stories. And some people love it and are going to be great writers of it. But statistically, we actually sell more nonfiction every year than fiction, and a lot of people don't realize that. But when you tally up all the nonfiction genres, those outsell fiction every year. Kira Hug: And so when you say, I wasn't, I can't write fiction and like, how did you know? I mean, is it something where you're like, oh, I can just persevere and are there signs that we can pay attention to? Maybe there's signs I can pay attention to so I don't waste a ton of time. And I just realized this is never going to happen for me. Stephanie Chandler: I love this question. So when I had the bookstore, I immediately started a writer's group. And so we would all bring our, you know, little stories in each week. And mine were so bad. And I would hear everyone else's and think, that's pretty good. Oh, I like that one. Oh, and then I'd read mine and go, oh, this is awful. So I, and I knew just the process of writing it was really difficult. It was painful. Right. But when I started writing nonfiction, it flowed. It felt good. You know, like Rob said, it feels good to write something you're passionate about. And I would bet a lot of fiction authors feel the opposite, right? It flows for them when they write fiction and they don't have a desire to teach or want to dispel facts into a manuscript. So yeah, I think part of it was a knowing and just a feeling that it shouldn't be this hard. I could have taken classes and all the things, but it was hard. Rob Marsh: I took a couple of the classes. I still, I mean, I still struggle. I've got a couple of what I think are really good ideas for fiction books, you know, novels, thrillers, whatever. But when it comes to putting down the plot points and making it all work, that's where it comes apart for me. Whereas what I've written nonfiction seems to Yeah, flow better. But let's talk about that. Let's talk about writing a nonfiction book, because like you said, I think there are a lot of copywriters out there who would like to do this, not necessarily just to have written a book, but to help grow their business,