Are Cancelations Over? Wendigoon vs. In Praise of Shadows

In this thought-provoking episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins delve into the recent controversy surrounding the attempted cancellation of YouTuber Wendigoon by the channel "In Praise of Shadows." The couple examines how this incident serves as a disturbing case study of the rise of extremism and dehumanization within certain ideological groups.

Malcolm and Simone analyze the rhetoric used by "In Praise of Shadows," drawing parallels between their language and tactics to those employed by the Nazi regime. They discuss how the dehumanization of perceived outsiders, the justification of violence against them, and the attempt to police and purify communities are all hallmarks of fascist ideologies.

The conversation also explores the importance of intellectual diversity, the dangers of ideological echo chambers, and the need for a sane and principled opposition to counter the spread of extremist views. Malcolm and Simone emphasize the value of cultural sovereignty, pluralism, and the fight against bigotry and radicalism from both sides of the political spectrum.

Throughout the discussion, the couple reflects on the broader implications of this controversy, the state of online discourse, and the potential for a return to civility and understanding in the face of increasing polarization. They also touch on the importance of holding individuals accountable for their actions to discourage future attempts at cancellation and dehumanization.

Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] The horror community, being a normal welcoming community, welcomes people with all ideological perspectives into it. But once you get a critical level of this ultra progressive, ultra urban monoculture perspective, they now think they own the entire cultural category, in this case, horror.

And they now have a duty to police entrants into this community. Only people who one think like them and fit their cultural rules belong in this community, but then he also reveals his hand about what he thinks about general society is at first he says, they should not be welcome in our space, but then he says they should not be welcomed in public in general.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. The argument being that they. spread harmful messages, presumably?

Malcolm Collins: No. I, he said we'll get to the arguments that he might use to justify this in his head, but generally he sees them as subhuman, not deserving of the same dignities of other human [00:01:00] groups. And that they should be treated as such.

And a lot of people don't understand how people can walk towards something like a Holocaust and society may not recognize that they're walking in that direction. Society where people like this person are tolerated. Is a society that is walking towards a holocaust.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but dehumanization is the first step of any of this.

You can't do these things to people. And

Malcolm Collins: elevating the murder of this family just for being in the wrong area, as a positive thing. But the most important thing in understanding how this larger memetic structure works is for a medic structure to stay stable like this. It needs to not encounter pushback, right.

Would you like to know more?

Malcolm Collins: Hello, Simone!

I am excited to be here with you today! We are going to cover the recent controversy around the attempted cancellation of Windagoon by In Praise of Shadows. However, we're not going to just spit the facts of the case and then react to them, I think, like a lot of people do. I want to be very based in the way [00:02:00] we do this.

I have a very unique take on this. And I think that there is a unique takeaway and a pretty big one to be had by this. Honestly, I found learning about this case it's just some of my perspectives because I think it's perfectly encapsulates two things.

One is how the mind virus of the urban monoculture works. How it has looped around from general progressivism to basically just being Nazism or at least a form of fascism. Although I think now that they've become anti Semitic, it's hard to call them anything other than Nazis. But anyway so how it has turned into this fascist Nazi ideology but also how individuals within it can't see that this has happened to them, even though they've taken these extremist positions.

So an example Of one of these positions that this guy took. So I'll just give you a few. One was, he talked about in a previous video, the Hills Have Eyes movie and that's what motivated this video. The people didn't like his [00:03:00] take on that movie from a couple years ago or something, and his channel wasn't doing as well as it used and he was bitter about that.

But anyway his take was that it was good that these white middle class people were brutalized because they had entered into another cultural group's territory. And then he analyzed that cultural group, like the crazy mutant savages in that movie with Native Americans. And he's so this is a good thing.

It's them taking back their,

In Praise of Shadows: further adds to the commentary that this family doesn't belong here.

Just by the way that they look, you can tell that they do not fit in with this vast desert landscape. They are an economic invading force. What is both home and hardship to one is a curiosity to pose in front of and take pictures to a group of others from a wealthier background. On the most basic, surface, superficial level, this is a film about cannibals killing and eating a family who get lost on their summer vacation.

And psychologically, most, when they watch this, will be on the side of the vacationing family, and wish for them to survive and make it out and get back [00:04:00] home. And, well Why is that? Because if you look at this from the perspective of the Hill People, they are only defending what is theirs, this land that they call home.

The Carter family would have never been killed if they had stayed in that monstrosity of industry that is New York, that their own kind created. It can stand in that way as a bit of an allegory as well, of that fact that even though we are housed under the umbrella of America, we are many different countries comprising of many different people that do not get along or like each other.

To say that the Hill People and the New Yorkers are of the same nation would only be true in the strictest definition, in that they happen to live within the same borders, but culturally, they couldn't be more different. The Hills Have Eyes is a clash of when you take two types of people who hold absolute contempt for one another, and then you proceed to call them both American and equals, who supposedly have the same opportunities at birth. Father Jupiter and his family are filled with murderous rage, [00:05:00] but why shouldn't they be? Do you see the surroundings that they are forced to put up with? At one point he says to the father, Bob Carter, Your dog made sport of my blood, you pig.

I'm gonna kill your kids for that. You come out here and stick your life in my face, stick your fingers in my pie. That was a bad mistake. I thought you were smart and tough. You're stupid. You're nothing. I'm gonna watch your goddamn car rust out. Yes, I will. I'll see the wind blow your dried up seeds away, I'll eat the heart of your stinking memory, I'll eat the brains of your kids kids.

There is a tangible fury here, a pure, unadulterated need for blood, and through that, vengeance. Vengeance at their situation and the systems in place that have forced them into this. In a way, are they not justified for their actions? The Hill People can be representative of anything that you want them to be, really.

They can be Native Americans, and the Hills themselves can be allegorical of them being forced back onto [00:06:00] reservations. They can be black Americans that have for hundreds of years been forced to live within a dehumanizing system that has balances in place that assure that they never get ahead

Malcolm Collins: and people were like, one, It shows the level of dehumanization he has of both groups, both of the native groups to see them as like these monstrous individuals but also the level of dehumanization he has of people he sees as representative of his cultural enemies which, generally conservatives, and you actually see this throughout the book.

a lot of stuff that he talks about. So in one part, when he's talking about how you know that Wendigoon is a bad guy in part he says it's because he's from Appalachia and you need to assume that every white person you meet in Appalachia is a racist unless they actively prove to you that they aren't.

In Praise of Shadows: He has said many times publicly that he lives in East Tennessee. It is about as white as you could possibly get. Deep Appalachia is very white country. And for the most part, is exceptionally racist. Genuinely in this part of the country. You have to assume that any white person you [00:07:00] meet Is racist, unless they show you otherwise.

Malcolm Collins: Which is a remarkably racist take. And I think a lot of leftists initially when they took this position that you can't be racist against whites and stuff like that. That they didn't understand that when you remove groups like this, like when you remove protections around groups like this, that these protections existed for a reason.

Like we did in the 90s when I was growing up, we understood that you shouldn't make large bigoted assumptions about a group. That has like deleterious externalities and that's why racism is bad. For the leftist framework to work, for it to dehumanize people outside of its framework so much that memetic sets from those groups can't reach them, it absolutely must fully dehumanize those groups.

Simone Collins: Yeah it feels a lot like Tucker and Dale versus evil, which we've referenced heavily in another podcast.

Malcolm Collins: our Tucker and Dale force versus evil problem. It is [00:08:00] about the way that the people from the urban monoculture dehumanize other people outside of the urban monoculture to such an extent that they can only see them as like freaks and murderers, no matter how nice they're trying to be to them And end up like murdering themselves in the process

Oh, good, look, your friends are here! Hey!

You're supposed to want to have children. And this is your ultimate goal in life. It is a very archaic idea and old idea and representation of a woman.

 So you you're getting people to sign a petition.

pledge, basically saying that they will not have Children until the Canadian government takes serious action on climate change.

Is that your blood? What, no. No, it's college kid blood. And how many people have signed on so far. 1, 381 as of right now. I know what this is. This is a suicide pact. Oh my god, that makes so much sense. , we have got to hide all [00:09:00] of the sharp objects!

In Praise of Shadows: genuinely in this part of the country. You have to assume that any white person you meet Is racist, unless they show you otherwise

 Holy mother of God! Some kid, he just hucked himself right into the wood chipper! What? Head first, right into the wood chipper! It looked like it might have been one of the college kids..

Malcolm Collins: Yeah which is actually Tucker and Dale versus evil talking about conservative horror. Another really interesting thing is the way that he tries to other conservative groups from a community that he has claimed ownership of, that his cultural group has.

So in the movie, he says that the horror space is a progressive space. Oh. Which is he calls it punk and dissonant and everything like that.

In Praise of Shadows: horror is an intrinsically left, punk, anti establishment, counter cultural art form that is primarily concerned with social issues and pushing boundaries beyond what is deemed Acceptable by traditional, more conservative, polite society.

Oh, he's just [00:10:00] a YouTuber. Why does it matter? Or, so what if he's a conservative? Is that a problem? Which, the answer to that is yes. But the reason that I care is because this does not belong in horror. Or anywhere. I care deeply about horror, and everything that he does has demonstrated so far in his career that he should not be welcomed in our spaces.

Or even, you know, just in public in general.

Malcolm Collins: While also noting that there are two types of horror content out there. Because he's there are talented right wing horror creators.

And we need to be vigilant for them so we can expel them from our space. Oh lord. And then he categorizes horror in two broad categories. One is horror made for artistic to give people an alternate perspective on the world and give them access to minimized perspectives. This is the progressive lens, like a horror made for art.

And then he's, and then there's this horror that's just made to be entertaining to watch. And that's human centipede. I don't think that's entertaining for anyone to watch.

The day started off so what's your [00:11:00] favorite film?

She you've been sent to be, Gone ironically. She said, The costume design was a highlight. I like it for the plot. Tell me what the plot's about

Malcolm Collins: No he's talking about horror. Where like specifically he was talking about how in a movie that was released recently they took out some violent stuff because then it could get a PG 13 rating and reach a larger audience.

Oh, okay. It's an intrinsically conservative thing to do. Like making your movie entertaining and fun to watch, for him, puts it in this negative category.

Simone Collins: So it's okay, horror with broad appeal, but if it's more like horror that's like a documentary that teaches people, then it's, Okay. Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Artistic merit to it from his perspective, but if the artistic marriage is in service to a conservative message like Tucker and Dale versus the force of evil, which is about how people in the urban monoculture dehumanized conservatives so much, the American rural poor so much that they can't see them as anything other than worthy of death and basically inhuman.

In Praise of Shadows: [00:12:00] genuinely in this part of the country. You have to assume that any white person you meet Is racist,

Malcolm Collins: And you'll see that this is his very much his perspective, um, which. So he first, and this was really interesting. So the, I was talking about how he's we own the horror space and we should not allow voices like his in the horror space. This is a really interesting thing to say, and it shows how this memetic virus works.

It begins to infect a community. When I say infected community, what I mean is. The horror community, being a normal welcoming community, welcomes people with all ideological perspectives into it. But once you get a critical level of this ultra progressive, ultra urban monoculture perspective, they now think they own the entire cultural category, in this case, horror.

And they now have a duty to police entrants into this community. Only people who one think like them and fit [00:13:00] their cultural rules belong in this community, but then he also reveals his hand about what he thinks about general society is at first he says, they should not be welcome in our space, but then he says they should not be welcomed in public in general.

Simone Collins: Wow. Okay. The argument being that they. spread harmful messages, presumably?

Malcolm Collins: No. I, he said we'll get to the arguments that he might use to justify this in his head, but generally he sees them as subhuman, not deserving of the same dignities of other human groups. And that they should be treated as such.

And a lot of people don't understand how people can walk towards something like a Holocaust and society may not recognize that they're walking in that direction. Society where people like this person are tolerated. Is a society that is walking towards a holocaust.

Simone Collins: Yeah, but dehumanization is the first step of any of this.

You can't do these things to people. And

Malcolm Collins: elevating the murder of this family just for being in the wrong area, as a positive thing. And then he's also talking about [00:14:00] who is the other? Because he segments. It's. Christians. He's this is how we know he's bad as Appalachians.

This is how he's always bad. But the most important thing in understanding how this larger memetic structure works is for a medic structure to stay stable like this. It needs to not encounter pushback, right? A normal human, like if he had ever interacted with like normal human content, or normal human beings. Somebody would put a mirror to his face and be like, you are becoming a Nazi. You are becoming the thing that you say you hate. And he would then have this moment of self reflection and maybe move away from these perspectives. Or double down, whatever. But it keeps them from seeing that.

And keep in mind, I don't think that these memetic structures are designed or they're done with self interest. It's just that certain iterations of the structure spread better than others and are extinguished. better than others, by preventing individuals in those groups from interacting with anyone who might reflect back to them what they are becoming.

Anyone who might disagree with this extremist progressive view. And the [00:15:00] way that they identify these individuals is just general bigotry, like Appalachian's bad, Christian's bad, etc. But then also, if a person has ever interacted with anyone else who they have identified as immune to this memetic structure, then that person also cannot be interacted with.

And the reason I think that this has gone viral is actually this. It was his list of associations of Wendigoan, and he saw these associations as tainted. Oh

Simone Collins: boy, yes. And therefore,

Malcolm Collins: Wendigoan cannot be allowed at horror conventions.

Cannot be allowed. To create horror content without being dogpiled on. They want to expel all memetic structures that are antagonistic to theirs from any community that they have infected. And and keep in mind, people can be like, why are you calling it like an infection or something like that?

Isn't that dehumanizing? And it's like, when you have a group that so dehumanizes other individuals, whether it's Nazi, like traditional German Nazism or this modern [00:16:00] form of Nazism It there is a reason that you need to go back and look at it like, like it's working, which is as a memetic virus.

Because I don't think any human comes to these views intentionally. I think if you played back this video of him today to him when he first started encountering these progressive views, he'd be horrified. He would recognize that for what it is, which is fascism, traditional fascism. But what's really interesting, what I always actually really hurt me.

Whenever I was watching, because I watched tons of videos on this to, to prep for this. Is Wendigoon's list of friends, he's yeah, his friends was like, Shoe on head, and Mr. Ballin, and Brandon Buckingham, and Okay, what hurts me is I'm just like, wow, this guy is so cool.

In Praise of Shadows: Wendigoon is a horror conspiracy theorist YouTuber with several million subscribers. Has a dark past with deep ties to far right extremism. Wendigoon is very publicly friends with Turkey Tom. He is friends with Mudahar. He is publicly friends with Shu on Head, who is a conservative masquerading as a leftist.

Malcolm Collins: Could I ever be that [00:17:00] cool to hang out with all of these famous YouTube personalities who like, I have parasocial relationships with through watching tons of their content.

Like, Mr. Ballin, what a bro. Everything about Mr. Ballin is the nicest thing ever. And he's so cool. And then he calls, and this very interesting is the way he attacks Shu on head.

In Praise of Shadows: He is publicly friends with Shoe on Head, who is a conservative masquerading as a leftist, who has built a career off of lazy anti woke content, complaining about SJWs.

Who says stuff like, Karl Marx rising from the grave, finding out his movement has been taken over, by fat, ugly, mentally ill losers. I mean,

Malcolm Collins: God, I'd love to do something with Shu on head sometime. So shoe on head he said that she's a fake liberal and she's actually a conservative because she's anti woke extremism and this shows how this sort of extremism medic structure works is somebody like shoe on head who broadly from our position perspective, it's pretty far progressive.

She isn't, [00:18:00]

Simone Collins: please correct me if I'm wrong. I'm so bad with names, but isn't shoe on head like one of the OG bread to people?

Malcolm Collins: A lot of people consider her that, but I wouldn't call her a breadtuber. I generally don't like breadtubers, and I like SheWanHead. She's actually an OG atheist skeptic community person.

Oh, wow, okay. Who then later became a leftist who isn't left on the crazy left positions. And the fact that he felt that being friends with her was a cancelable event, that's really interesting to me in how this memetic structure works. Yeah. And that it's not just anti conservative, it's anti anything that isn't extremist.

Simone Collins: He's Robespierring, honestly.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, Robespierring. So explain what you mean by that.

Simone Collins: You could think of Robespierre in the French Revolution as being one of the leaders that's associated with all the winch hunts and the beheadings and what happened with the French Revolution.

Very broadly speaking, I'm butchering this. Ha, pun intended is that after basically all of the usual suspects and obvious people were beheaded in the French Revolution, everyone just [00:19:00] started turning on each other and it was chaos and, suddenly no one was really safe. And I think this is already happening and this is maybe what's indicative of what's happening now within the woke movement is having run out of conservatives to cancel Or centrists who are open about their opinions to cancel, they're left cancelling or attempting to cancel or attack people within their own, we'll say like broad culture because they're the only ones left talking.

They're the only ones left standing on. I think I don't think

Malcolm Collins: that's what's happening

Simone Collins: here. Yeah,

Malcolm Collins: what's happening? I think what's happening here is. They see Shu On Head, even though she is culturally aligned with their interests, as being immune to the memetic architecture, which makes up the virus. And because she is immune to some elements of it, it's best to just remove her, excise her, and anyone who interacts with her, because in any of these alternate memetic structures that she clearly has [00:20:00] access to that have given her this immunity, it's Or going to enter and potentially destroy the cohesion of their community.

Which isn't like, I can see why you'd have an evolutionary pressure to move in that direction.

Simone Collins: She's being so cute. She's like smiling and stuff. I don't know if you'll be able to see, but we're getting more and more smiles each day, Malcolm. I'm so excited.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, I love that. You're so sweet. But anyway, so another thing that's really interesting is how he justifies his dehumanization is very Nazi like in structure.

So a lot of people don't know, but he literally accuses

Simone Collins: him. of being a Nazi for associated with people who at one time have owned or had or held guns that Nazis used? He's really grasping at straws here. No, not guns that Nazis used, just had guns.

According to one YouTube analysis of this I've heard, at one point there was one person who had or used a type of gun that Nazis used at one point, and that was enough.

Of a tenuous [00:21:00] association. Of this YouTuber comparing it to arguments of Hitler breathes air, so do you, therefore you are like Hitler. This guy wore Hawaiian shirts. Oh, how dare, how very boogaloo, this is terrible.

Malcolm Collins: This guy has repeatedly denounced the group, no, you can't not denounce the group.

If you have any association, it's best to just remove you, only pure people. And this is interesting, right? Even if somebody now agrees with most of this guy's positions they lack purity. You could only. Be allowed in their spaces or at least have a loud voice within their spaces if you are pure and it really reminds me of this sort of idea of aryan purity and everything like that But it's more than that because I want to talk about how the nazis actually began to talk about the Jews and the groups that they would eventually cancel.

And cancel, sorry, genocide. Is that what we're calling it now? We got to cancel them. So they would say that these groups were a threat to them. And I think that's what people forget. They said that these groups have taken most of [00:22:00] society's wealth and that they control all of the businesses.

And that they now utilize these this power to be a threat to us. They caused us to lose World War II. They've been sabotaging us. And it's really reminiscent of and I should be clear, Jews in Germany did not do this. That this is very reminiscent of the way that he, because he identifies as queer, who even knows if he's gay.

He's probably one of those, What we would consider as somebody who actually supports the real LGBT community, fake iterations of trans or it's like a cis guy who just identifies as whatever, non binary so that he can get access to spaces that really he doesn't have any business being in.

But anyway identifies as, queer, and he sees Republicans like this alternate group as trying to exterminate his group, even though we haven't seen that at all, and people are like, Oh, but what about all these anti trans laws? And I need to be clear. And we talked about this in other videos.

There is a huge difference between [00:23:00] being a against people who are born in the wrong body and want to live their own lives, and people who are actually sexualizing minors, who are actively, which is happening, you can't like say this isn't happening, like it is something that's happening, I can post a clip here from a turkey tom, oh turkey tom was another person who got mad at the guy for knowing, a turkey tom Such a leftist.

He actually annoys me at times.

it's genuinely really good grooming advice. On April 4th, 2023, Postcard reveals he's in contact with four minors. Age 9 to 13. I've so far sent it to four minors between the ages of 9 and 13. I hope it encourages them to transition. When the Anka Zone animation became a meme, they got excited over its virality among kids. Mana Drain and Orion also fantasized about getting kids on hormones orion was the manager , coercing him every step of the way. This is apparent by how he talked about him to others. Has he started hormones yet? Yes, but not effectively. I guess that's what you'd expect just telling a r to buy hormones. They bought estrogen, but no anti androgen. It would have been more fun if he started [00:24:00] hormone blockers at like 12.

Haha, isn't that true for everyone? Don't worry, I'll make him into a good girl

Don't blow up our spot, bro. All t slurs are like that. You can trust me around your kid. It'd be transphobic not to. Me with daycare tots. To Orion, and many of his associates, their identity was little more than a political shield.

It clearly worked, given he publicly fantasized about assaulting women in bathrooms. Me when transphobic little girls ask me what I'm doing in the women's restroom when I'm obviously a woman. the two fantasized about assaulting J. K. Rowling's grandchildren. Not letting teaslers get with your kids is transphobic. Someone should Harry Potter woman's grandkids. Orion then goes on to call them turf meats.

Malcolm Collins: But anyway Turkey Tom talking about this guy, he's yeah, we want to target these underage people and try to get them to convert for our sexual gratification. Like, this is something that's happening and conservatives are trying to prevent this because you don't want these types of people in and around kids.

And some of the ways that they try to handle it might be ham fisted. But it's not, I think, wrong headed. And I think that if you actually cared about the trans people [00:25:00] who are just trying to live their own lives, you would see that this group of people who is using the trans identity to protect and to resist actions is a genuine threat to real trans people.

They're a genuine threat to lesbians. They get in lesbian spaces and they, Harass them constantly and beat them up. We have, we'll have another video on this. They are a genuine threat to real gay men. 45 percent of gay men voted for Trump in the last election cycle, at least according to the one poll I could find on this.

They don't identify with this. And yet they get smeared and they have to deal with the negative consequences of these types of individuals. So the point being is that there isn't actually. a right wing attack on the queer community at all. If anything, the group most defensive of the real OG queer community, people who just want to live their own lives instead of, aggressively forcing ideology on other people which is more of an ideological movement than a movement about just let me be who I am.

That is the right leaning community because they are doing what they can to fight the mal actors. But anyway think the, they have it's just that the [00:26:00] structure of their arguments and the way they've been able to motivate this fear and justify these immoral acts in their community are so reminiscent of Nazis and the way that the Nazi movement came to power.

And it is interesting that they have no internal reflection on this. That at no moment does he Wait, I just said that all of a population groups thinks a certain way or acts a certain way, or I just said that all of a certain population group shouldn't be allowed in public. And this group includes things like Christians.

That's a religious culture. Like, how can you say that's any different than saying Jews, right? Oh my gosh. Christians have structural power and money in our society. And it's that's what the Nazis said about the Jews. Like that is the way this is. No, I don't think it descends directly from Nazism.

I just think it's a convergently evolved memetic structure that is very good at purifying spaces. They enter a community. And this is also why you've got to be so vigilant within your communities about individuals like this. Because they enter a [00:27:00] community and then eventually they say, no, this is.

And the best way to fight against this, and this is the other thing I've really found interesting about this whole event, it's very much like Tom and Jerry like shooting himself in the face.

 Um.

Malcolm Collins: Trying to Jerry bends the gun back and then it shoots him in the face. I said it completely backfired on him.

And he's being hard canceled right now, and I don't think this would have happened a year or two ago. I think a year or two ago, something like this may have been partially successful. And so I think that we are actually seeing, even from within leftist spaces An understanding of the toxicity of this extremist memetic subgroup and an isolation and quarantining of it, or at least a shaming of it to the extent that other people will stop doing this.

I don't think they do it so sloppily. This is very [00:28:00] sloppy. Yeah, but that's how you end cancellations as a concept.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: Like we might be seeing the beginning of the end of cancellations. This could be the last cancellation. I'm not saying it's the last, but look, last weekend, somebody tried to cancel us, right?

There was an article on us and people tried to cancel us for using corporal punishment with our kids. Very light corporal punishment with our kids, which it's like 75 percent of Americans do and the research backs and we've done episodes on this. But. There was old research in the eighties that didn't back this, but I love how so many people are like living in eighties world where they're like, the world population is growing forever.

Republicans hate the gays or I'm like, bro, like none of that stuff has been true for a long time at this point. Or. What was I talking about here? Or corporal punishment. Everyone agrees that's bad. Instead of, large amount of studies showing no, actually it's probably lightly beneficial.

So, you where were they going with this? So what we could see is society corrects. We get a sane Republican base again and a sane progressive [00:29:00] base again. And I really like to see that. And that is when people say what? Is one of our core agendas and it's something we talk a lot about internally is to create a sane Republican,

A Republican party that has a philosophical consistency throughout it, like a larger philosophical underpinning behind it instead of the broad populism.

And I'm not saying that that's all Trump is these days. I actually. I think he's a great president. Speaking of gays, the first president in American history that supported gay marriage when he was elected Obama didn't do that. So let's be clear here. This is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about like their old narratives are just off.

But I think that. The larger structure of there isn't a deep philosophical sophistication behind the new cluster of ideas that's making up the modern Republican movement. And I think some individuals trying to bring that in who I like, like BAP, Bronze Age Pervert, I think is fantastic. I think he's like the artsy [00:30:00] version of maybe what we're doing.

And then there's individuals like us and, before us, like Curtis, who have been trying to, I think, create a philosophical theory of the modern or post Trump Republican ideology which for us is very much one, bull moose Republicanism, all, not just big government bad, but, like, All large bureaucracies bad, big companies be everything like that bad, and that we should see the conservative movement as a diverse, pluralistic alliance against the urban monoculture, against unanimity.

This idea that this other guy's pushing for that everyone needs to think the same, everyone needs to act the same that there should be allowed to know diverse perspectives. And that is achieved through cultural sovereignty, through allowing for homeschooling, allowing the money to follow the student, allowing somebody to not take a vaccine when they're when they want to, it's allowing this cultural autonomy.

that I think can drive this next iteration. So a hatred of large bureaucracies and cultural autonomy all above all else. And I think you can build [00:31:00] a larger cultural framework around that antagonist to the urban monoculture and the pluralist alliance against the urban monoculture, which is driven. By an undercurrent of vitalism fighting the nihilism that we increasingly see on the progressive side.

Now, I think that the nihilism on the progressive side can be subverted, and I'm, I've really been heartened by the progressive response to this guy because before was progressive. What we saw was Gamergate one and Gamergate two. I've always said that their biggest mistake is that they don't.

They always back the bad guy. The Five Guys girl, who was colluding and sleeping with people she was writing stories on, was clearly the bad guy. She did not deserve to be defended. Sweet Baby Inc. was clearly the bad guy. They were Creating bad games they were destroying franchises.

They were, I've described it as like buying somebody's like childhood home. And people can't understand why people hate like remakes and stuff like this, where, it's a bunch of woke stuff. They're like just don't watch it or something. I feel like if somebody like bought your childhood home and then covered in banners about how much they hate you and [00:32:00] how much, how stupid you are and how racist you are, even if you're not racist, how homophobic you are, even if you're not homophobic, you'd be like, and then put like blaring signs around it and walked around shouting mean stuff about you all day.

That would have the nostalgia mixed with the degradation would hurt, and it's designed to hurt. And yeah, I can understand people's reaction to Sweet Baby Inc. And the bigotry of Sweet Baby Inc. These are people like the people who are running it said a lot of bigoted stuff against white people.

And I think that this is the other thing that the Republican Party, we were looking at starting an anti DEI consulting group. And what we're looking at is like anti bigotry or something like that, because that's what I see that says, and I think that's what Republicans need to stand for going forwards is fighting bigotry and radicalism.

And I think that when you are fighting bigotry and radicalism you are fighting DEI, you are fighting people like this who represent, I think, forms of bigotry that everyone across the spectrum can agree is morally abhorrent.

Yeah,

Simone Collins: it's encouraging. I love not only though, that we're seeing this backlash, [00:33:00] but the politeness of the backlash.

And I feel like Wendigun's response to this. Was so gentlemanly in such good form that it also gave me a lot of hope because it's one thing for there to be a backlash.

It's another thing for the backlash to represent civility, cordial behavior. Kindness, understanding, empathy. And that's all stuff that was present in Wendigoon's response, because obviously, a witch hunt to solve a witch hunt, isn't really going to make this problem any better. And one of my concerns recently with regard to the backlash against woke has been that as much as there is an increase in pushback, really what we're seeing is not a return to some kind of normal, a market correction of society.

So much as it is increased polarization and just that more people are moving to the other pole because they're getting rejected from one. And this suggests that we might have some hope of [00:34:00] reaching a new equilibrium of broad sanity instead of just extreme polarization that just gets worse and worse over time.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, I, and the goal of everyone, like us trying to make the conservative party more sane, I think that most progressives should be doing everything they can to cheer us on for what we're trying to do, right? We accomplish their aims much better than they do, but for us, the progressives that are fighting against him also are accomplishing our aims better than we can within the progressive side.

Because what we want America to become is too progressive. parties that are having a disagreement over the best way to run the country.

Simone Collins: Yeah, we don't care. We don't care. We want good outcomes. It's not like people are

Malcolm Collins: acting in bad faith here. But when you get groups that genuinely want to exterminate another group, you can't relate to them in that way.

When you get people like him who so dehumanize me that he would be excited about our family being murdered. That is because, we see in a family like the hills have eyes that I also think that also the [00:35:00] rules that he was using there are interesting. That it was okay for them to be murdered because they had encroached on another cultural groups space.

Yet, He thinks nothing and so one, that shows his justification of what he thinks is appropriate to do when conservatives enter progressive spaces that he believes they have ownership over, like the horror community. But in addition to that it shows how much the rules apply to you, but not me.

He thinks his cultural group should be able to invade anyone's space, because it is the correct cultural group. He should be able to tell other people, which he does in the video, how they should be able to use Native American words and stuff like that, even though, Wendigoon actually does have Native American heritage and this guy doesn't.

Oh, really? He should be able to police the use of the word Wendigo, because he has the right views, the progressive views, and therefore he can encroach on native ideological spaces and weaponize them for his agenda. Which just shows [00:36:00] the way that I'll add the clip from my favorite, Gap year song.

I was in Africa in Tasna I saw this woman, Malaria And she looked at me with this vacant stare As if to say, despite our differences, you and reminds me of this time, oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. I was in South America. In Prague. Prague. No. Pura darling, Pura. Peru. Oh yeah, Pura, Pura, yeah.

Wonderful country, you know, beautiful people, yeah. Um, yeah, I knew. We were drinking in the Andes, and the sun was just rising and glinting off the snow, creating a sort of ethereal haze. And I really got a sense of the awesome power of nature and [00:37:00] the insignificance of man. And then I just shuddered.

Everywhere.

Malcolm Collins: That progressives relate to other cultural groups of beautiful people. Oh, lovely country, beautiful people, like tapping them on the head like just completely dehumanizing them. He sees them as nothing other than set dressing for his ideological perspective. Instead of this is what we say about progressives.

Like they, they think that everyone's the same. Like, how can we, how can diversity have value? Everyone's the same, right? Diversity only has value because we're different in our proficiencies, perspectives, et cetera. Yeah. And and that all of these have a value until they reach a state where their goal is to erase everyone who's different from them.

And I think that this is actually really interesting, is if you look at these two ideological perspectives, they can be like, Malcolm, aren't you doing what he's doing? I'm like, no, I am okay, and we've always said this, with every group, no matter how distant they are from us existing, so long as their end goal isn't to erase every other ideological group on earth.

Now [00:38:00] this puts us at odds with some Christian groups and stuff like that. And we're able to work with them now because we have short term reasons to work together.

Simone Collins: So to keep in mind we're also not trying to dehumanize those groups. Those groups are in some ways less of an a*****e than our groups.

And in some ways more of an a*****e, which is to say we're in the mind of. Not everyone can be saved. People, who are not among the elect are just going

Malcolm Collins: to

Simone Collins: These other groups are like yes, we want to save everyone but therefore everyone has to be like us Which is both not assholey because they care about saving anyone everyone but assholey because it's also very

Malcolm Collins: similar to his ideological So if he can hate these christians who are like we're just trying to save your soul, man, He thinks that if everybody acted like him and was part of this cultural group, and that's what we talk about is when they attack us for spanking, we're like like 90 percent of black families fake, and they're like, oh obviously, my criticisms of you don't apply to them.

It's but secretly they do secretly. You do plan to wipe out that practice in their communities. [00:39:00] Even though it is what's culturally normal for them you have this actually not

Simone Collins: even been secretive about that. They're just like, Oh they're just less educated because I'm watching the discourse online.

Often people are saying yeah, and that's not acceptable either.

Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so they do have this cultural imperialism goal, but they believe that there's this positive end state from their goal. And then if they come to us and they're like, how are you so sure there isn't a positive end state for my goal?

And I'm like, bro, have you been around an ultra progressive community? You guys want to have terrible mental health. You're riddled with anxiety. You're riddled with depression. You're constantly infighting. You are barely staying stable without your like, weekly visits to psychiatrists, which you're not seeing in conservative communities.

It's clear that this sociological structure that you've built, it doesn't work. And that's why we don't want you spreading it to our kids. They're like, Oh we're going to rescue your kids. And I'm like, what the hell? You're not rescuing my kids. I have seen how terrible this structure you have built is.

Maybe in the nineties, you could have claimed that it would work [00:40:00] if enough people tried it. But I think that's lost plausible deniability at this point.

Simone Collins: Yeah.

Malcolm Collins: And yeah, but I do believe that there is a seen progressivism, like shoe on head progressivism. I think that there is a place that they can go and wouldn't it be so great if this isn't the first of the cancellations we see blow up in someone's face.

And I was mentioning, yeah, like the cancellation on us, it basically just increased our public footprint. That was it. That's what came out of it.

Which we are incredibly lucky that happened.

Simone Collins: Yeah. That's

Malcolm Collins: exciting. What a good development. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so go to more cancellations, and hopefully one day, if any of the people mentioned in this video, other than the in praise of shadows guys, he just seems to be completely are like, Hey, I watch your content. I'd love to reach out sometime. Please do. Because this guy seemed to have the coolest group of friends ever. And I'm jelly.

But then I reflect on like our group, we've got like pearly things watches us and we've done her show before. She's one of our subscribers. I don't know how much she actually watches us. But I like her a lot. It'd be cool if we did more stuff with her. And then we've got the normal [00:41:00] crew.

I guess some people are like, Yeah, but you get to hang out with Scott Alexander and Richard Hinenia and all that. And I'm like, yeah. The and Curtis Yarvin the nerd crew. Which is really cool. What? It is. But I love how within the online influencer spheres, there's like our sphere, which is like nerdy intellectual dissidents.

And then there's like the cool popular dissident circle. The non rationalist adjacent. Yeah. The non rationalist adjacent. The people who look

Simone Collins: more like the popular

Malcolm Collins: kids. And I really see them as that. Like he's listing off his list of names and I'm like, Oh, that's like the aspirational, sane, popular people.

Anyway. I love you to death Simone. You are amazing. And I really appreciate you. And do you have any final thoughts on this?

Simone Collins: No, I'm glad you shared the story with me. I had not heard anything about this. So love me some internet gossip. All right. Have a good one.

One quick side here where I would actually criticize wind to goons response to this. Is, he was very big on saying that people should [00:42:00] not attack this person for what he's done. And I appreciate the optics of that statement. But if this man is not seen as being attacked for what he has done, Then more people will attempt this sort of behavior in the future. It is very important, not from the perspective of this person being hurt, which I think is bad and everything like that because, you know, clearly he's just a mentally disturbed person. , at this point, You know, but that mental disturbance that he has is a contagious one. And if the public doesn't see that there are negative repercussions for these kinds of actions. Then this is going to happen more in the future to people who may not have so many high profile friends. And so it is very important that publicly this guy gets taken down.

Do it. And let the English see you do it. And I will say in the response to this, if you're like, , maybe with a good person, maybe with an off day, he said, my heart was in the right place.

You know, you can't know whether [00:43:00] your heart is objectively like a good or bad heart, but you can know the heart you really have. And what he said was that is I still believe in my heart of hearts, that what I did was right. And as such, he shows that who he is in his heart of hearts is just a black heart. He is. , bad a person at this point.

And I don't know, I don't think he was born a bad person, but he has gotten to that point. I don't think that Nazis were born bad people necessarily, but that's where he is today. He was susceptible to a certain self-reinforcing set of mediums that has led him to this point.

And yes, he can break out of it, but it would be the equivalent of cult deprogramming at this point, which is very hard in a society that's controlled by a particular cult.

Malcolm Collins: I hate episodes where I have to have my notes up because your picture is smaller.

Simone Collins: Oh, you are so romantic. How did I on earth earn someone as wonderful as you? Although, you know what? We've gone kind of full circle with me dressing weird. You met me when I [00:44:00] dressed like a weird ass hipster.

And now I'm back to dressing like a weird ass hipster. I

Malcolm Collins: don't think you look like a, you look like a, I'm probably going to label this video something like tradwife reacts or something like I did with the What was it? Gamergate 2 controversy. I was just watching

Simone Collins: a YouTube video commenting on tradwives and kind of the one of the big points they were making is Tradwives don't publish content about actually being tradwives like they never actually show themselves vacuuming or anything.

It's always, preparing elaborate meals or talking about serving their husbands. And I should just create a Treadwife series where I'm like, this is me wiping up s**t again. Here's me pulling pebbles of s**t out of the bathtub. Here's me scraping s**t out of underwear.

Malcolm Collins: Most of a trad wife's life is just around cleaning s**t off of things.

Simone Collins: Yeah. Here's me using a a tool to get s**t in between the floorboards.

Malcolm Collins: Oh my god. I am just delighted to be talking to you because today we didn't do our strategy walk,

Simone Collins: I missed

Malcolm Collins: it. And [00:45:00] I'm putting all this at the end like I normally do, like our just chat. You don't have

Simone Collins: to put it in at all.

No one needs to know about how much s**t I put up with.

Malcolm Collins: Oh, yeah. We want to make being a parent look good, right? We got to, yes,

Simone Collins: you got to make fun. This is why tried wives don't publish that and or hire people to do it for them. Unlike us. Cause we're too cheap to do that s**t. Plus we don't

Malcolm Collins: shoot.

What was this guy's channels name again?

Simone Collins: Oh, the one that that talks about when to go, it's

Malcolm Collins: In Praise of Shadows. I'll compose myself for this, because this is one where I'm not probably going to put hot takes at the beginning, because I'm going to start with

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