In the Shadows of Utopia: The Khmer Rouge and the Cambodian Nightmare S3: Interview: The Super Great Leap Forward and the Khmer Rouge Prison System with Henri Locard
Oct 22, 2025
01:18:38
This episode is a follow-up to the two-hour discussion I had with historian Henri Locard. The video of that full conversation is available for free on Patreon right here (or just go to https://www.patreon.com/shadowsofutopia) - no sign up required.
Henri Locard is a prominent scholar of the Khmer Rouge, he testified as an expert witness at the ECCC, and has written extensively on the subject. Most notably Pol Pot's Little Red Book, a collection of the slogans used by the Khmer Rouge, and most recently, Jungle Heart of the Khmer Rouge, a biography of Phi Phuon, Pol Pot's Jarai bodyguard. He also has an upcoming book about the extent of the Khmer Rouge prison system that he is looking to find a publisher for.
Unlike last time, in our 'discussion', the focus is tighter. I ask Henri four main questions, particularly the ones that we hadn't got to last time, and while he still drifts a little in his answers (as he does), this is a more concentrated exchange that digs deep into how he sees Cambodia’s past and present.
We talk about the meaning of the “Super Great Leap Forward,” the myths of the so-called “hydraulic city” and how they shaped Khmer Rouge policy, the true extent of the regime’s prison system (which Henri argues was more than three times what the ECCC has documented), and finally, what he believes is the single best book written about the Khmer Rouge.
Henri has a habit of challenging accepted ideas about Cambodian history, but not in the revisionist way of minimizing the regime’s crimes. He re-examines long-held assumptions, particularly about just how widespread the brutality of the Khmer Rouge was. What makes his perspective powerful is his deep, lived connection to the country, and his long study of how the Khmer Rouge prison network worked.
And as you’ll hear, the conversation begins in one place, loops back around, and then veers in an unexpected direction by the end.
Henri Locard is a prominent scholar of the Khmer Rouge, he testified as an expert witness at the ECCC, and has written extensively on the subject. Most notably Pol Pot's Little Red Book, a collection of the slogans used by the Khmer Rouge, and most recently, Jungle Heart of the Khmer Rouge, a biography of Phi Phuon, Pol Pot's Jarai bodyguard. He also has an upcoming book about the extent of the Khmer Rouge prison system that he is looking to find a publisher for.
Unlike last time, in our 'discussion', the focus is tighter. I ask Henri four main questions, particularly the ones that we hadn't got to last time, and while he still drifts a little in his answers (as he does), this is a more concentrated exchange that digs deep into how he sees Cambodia’s past and present.
We talk about the meaning of the “Super Great Leap Forward,” the myths of the so-called “hydraulic city” and how they shaped Khmer Rouge policy, the true extent of the regime’s prison system (which Henri argues was more than three times what the ECCC has documented), and finally, what he believes is the single best book written about the Khmer Rouge.
Henri has a habit of challenging accepted ideas about Cambodian history, but not in the revisionist way of minimizing the regime’s crimes. He re-examines long-held assumptions, particularly about just how widespread the brutality of the Khmer Rouge was. What makes his perspective powerful is his deep, lived connection to the country, and his long study of how the Khmer Rouge prison network worked.
And as you’ll hear, the conversation begins in one place, loops back around, and then veers in an unexpected direction by the end.