Michael Levin, a biologist at Tufts University, discusses groundbreaking insights into embryogenesis and the emergence of biological agency. He challenges traditional views on evolution by exploring the capabilities of xenobots and their implications for regenerative medicine. The conversation touches on bioelectricity's role in cell communication, the adaptability of life, and unconventional cognition across different organisms. Levin also reflects on the philosophical implications of synthetic biology and the quest for meaning in life and death.
Embryogenesis is a gradual process without a specific point where cognition emerges.
Biology constructs competencies internally for efficient problem-solving.
The belief in agency emerges from energy constraints and the need for coherent narratives.
Biology showcases incredible plasticity and intelligence beyond the human brain.
Universal need for boundaries and coarse-grain experiences in achieving complex structures.
Deep dives
Embryogenesis and the Physics to Mind Transformation
Embryogenesis is a gradual and smooth process that demonstrates the transformation from simple physics to complex cognition. From a single quiescent unfertilized oocyte, an organism develops with high-level cognition and preferences. This process shows that there is no specific point where a lightning bolt signifies the shift from physics to true cognition. Rather, the whole mystery lies in how mind emerges from matter through the interplay of physics, information encoded in DNA, and the laws of scaling.
Harnessing Biology's Competency Architecture
Biological systems, including cells and organisms, operate with multi-scale competency architectures. Each level, from molecules to tissues to organs, has its own goals and competencies. This architecture allows for problem-solving in different spaces, and every level collaborates and competes with others. Unlike current AI systems, biology constructs these competencies internally from scratch, bending the option space for lower-level components. The result is efficient problem-solving that relies on collective intelligence and emergent capabilities.
The Origins of Selfhood and Free Will
The development of selfhood and the belief in free will are significant aspects of biology's exploration of space and agency. Organisms, even at primitive levels, construct themselves under energy constraints, leading to a sense of agency. This ability to create models and think in terms of agency is essential in making optimal decisions with limited resources. While debates about free will continue, the belief in agency emerges as a consequence of efficient energy usage and the need for coherent narratives in perceiving and interacting with the external environment.
The Plasticity and Intelligence of Biology
Biology possesses incredible plasticity and intelligence, showcasing the ability to adapt to different circumstances and problem-solve efficiently. This plasticity allows organisms to achieve their goals despite changes in cell size, DNA content, or external interventions. While the human brain is undoubtedly remarkable, it is important to recognize the potential cognition found within other organisms and even synthetic constructs. By broadening our understanding of what cognition entails, we can better appreciate the variety of cognitive life that may exist beyond our planet.
Biology's Unique Approach to Developmental Biology
Biology's approach to developmental biology highlights its ability to achieve a final goal through different means. Each cell's competence allows for problem-solving and adaptation in response to resource limitations and environmental challenges. While individual cells play their part, the collective intelligence of the cells allows for the formation of complex structures and the execution of large-scale anatomical tasks. This plasticity showcases the universal need to create boundaries and coarse-grain experiences, all while minimizing surprise and optimizing efficiency.
Expanding Definitions of Cognition and Synthetic Organisms
Conventional categorizations of cognition can limit our understanding of intelligence. Challenging traditional definitions and embracing unconventional cognition opens up the possibility of recognizing cognitive capabilities in organisms beyond the human brain. The study of plants and the creation of synthetic organisms can help broaden our perspective on cognition, encouraging us to explore different architectures and information processing systems. By understanding the fundamental principles of cognition and embracing variety, we can better appreciate the potential for intelligent life both on Earth and elsewhere in the universe.
Regenerative Medicine and Anatomical Compiler
A major goal in regenerative medicine is to develop an anatomical compiler, a system where one can create a design for a specific organ or body part and convert it into stimuli that cells can interpret to build exactly that desired structure. This would revolutionize medicine by providing a solution to birth defects, traumatic injuries, cancer, aging, and degenerative diseases. By applying regenerative medicine early, before degradation occurs, the need for expensive and heroic interventions can be eliminated. This would have massive economic impacts and make healthcare more sustainable. Additionally, this advancement would challenge and potentially redefine ethical norms, focusing on agency, suffering, and the deep questions surrounding consciousness.
Predicting and Manipulating Collective Intelligence
The field of synthetic biology aims to better understand and control the goals of collective intelligence within cells and tissues. This knowledge is crucial for developing regenerative medicine and advancing technologies like swarm robotics and IoT. By predicting and manipulating the emergent intelligence of composite systems, we hope to achieve a deeper understanding of cognition and pave the way for ethical advancements. However, it is important to approach this field from an engineering perspective, focusing on its practical applications and potential to shape our future.
Regenerative limb regeneration in frogs and mice
The podcast discusses the breakthrough in regenerative limb regeneration in frogs and ongoing trials in mice. By utilizing a wearable bioreactor with a silk gel carrying specific drugs, researchers were able to stimulate cells to regrow limbs after amputation. This regrowth occurred in the initial 24-hour period, and afterward, the cells continued to develop the limb without further intervention for 18 months. This proof of concept highlights the importance of early cell decision-making and the potential for regenerative medicine in treating limb loss.
Bioelectric control in cancer suppression
The podcast explores the role of bioelectric control in cancer suppression. The breakdown of cooperation between cells and the loss of electrical connectivity increases the likelihood of cancer development. However, researchers have successfully manipulated the bioelectric state of cells to keep them in a coherent network, effectively reducing tumor formation and even reverting cancerous cells back to their normal state. This approach, which prioritizes organ-level goals and preserving cell connectivity, has shown promising results in studies with glioblastoma cells and offers a potential alternative to traditional cancer treatments.
Michael Levin is a biologist at Tufts University working on novel ways to understand and control complex pattern formation in biological systems. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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OUTLINE:
Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time.
(00:00) – Introduction
(06:40) – Embryogenesis
(14:08) – Xenobots: biological robots
(27:55) – Sense of self
(37:27) – Multi-scale competency architecture
(48:58) – Free will
(58:27) – Bioelectricity
(1:11:44) – Planaria
(1:23:33) – Building xenobots
(1:47:08) – Unconventional cognition
(2:11:39) – Origin of evolution
(2:18:42) – Synthetic organisms
(2:25:27) – Regenerative medicine
(2:29:14) – Cancer suppression
(2:33:15) – Viruses
(2:38:28) – Cognitive light cones
(2:43:03) – Advice for young people
(2:47:47) – Death
(2:57:17) – Meaning of life
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