The Burnt Toast Podcast Why Is the WNBA Running Weight Loss Ads Right Now?
Today Virginia is chatting with Frankie De La Cretaz.
Frankie is an award-winning journalist whose work sits at the intersection of sports, gender and culture. They are the co-author of Hail Mary, the rise and fall of the National Women’s Football League, and their writing has been featured in The New York Times, Sports Illustrated, The Atlantic and more.
Frankie also writes Out of Your League, a newsletter about queer sports and pop culture, which I consider a must-subscribe. If you have been remotely following the issues of trans women in sports, you likely already know how well Frankie calls out that bias and discrimination. As Frankie points out, the way bodies are policed and controlled in the sports world is really just a microcosm of how the bodies of queer, trans, and otherwise marginalized folks are being policed and controlled throughout our culture right now.
So even if you think you don’t care about sports, I promise you’ll care about this conversation.
If you find today’s episode valuable, please consider supporting our work with a paid subscription!
Guest interviews are always free on Burnt Toast, but paid subscriptions enable us to pay guests for their time, labor and expertise. (This is extremely rare in the world of podcasting, but key to centering marginalized voices!)
To tell us YOUR thoughts, and to get all of the links and resources mentioned in this episode, as well as a complete transcript, visit our show page.
If you want more conversations like this one, please rate and review us in your podcast player! And become a paid Burnt Toast subscriber — subscriptions are just $7 per month! —to get all of Virginia's reporting and bonus subscriber-only episodes.
And don’t forget to check out our Burnt Toast Podcast Bonus Content!
Disclaimer: You’re listening to this episode because you value my input as a journalist who reports on these issues and therefore has a lot of informed opinions. Neither my guest today nor I are healthcare providers, and this conversation is not meant to substitute for medical or therapeutic advice.
FAT TALK is out in paperback! Order your signed copy from Virginia's favorite independent bookstore, Split Rock Books (they ship anywhere in the US!). Or order it from your independent bookstore, or from Barnes & Noble, Amazon, Target, or Kobo or anywhere else you like to buy books. You can also order the audio book from Libro.fm or Audible.
CREDITS
The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay. Follow Virginia on Instagram, Follow Corinne @SellTradePlus, an Instagram account where you can buy and sell plus size clothing and subscribe to Big Undies.
Our theme music is by Farideh.Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism.
Thank you for subscribing. Leave a comment or share this episode.
---
Episode 178 Transcript
Frankie
My name is Frankie de la Cretaz. I am an independent journalist, and my work mostly sits at the intersection of sports, gender, and culture.
Virginia
Even if you identify as a deeply un-athletic and not-sports-fluent person, such as myself, Frankie’s work will make you understand sports in a whole new way—and how much it intersects with politics, culture, everything else that’s going on.
So everyone needs to subscribe to
.
Frankie
I appreciate that. I actually consider myself someone who writes about sports for people who don’t think they care about sports, so I’m glad that’s coming across.
Virginia
We’re going to talk about something that you’ve been writing about for a long time, which is the potential of sports to be fat positive, and the many barriers in place there. But before we go there: I want to acknowledge we are having this conversation a day after the inauguration. It’s going to drop about a week out from the inauguration. It’s a rough time in America right now.
And one of Trump’s first presidential actions was to publish an executive order that I have had to read three or four times because it is so jarring to see such anti-trans, misogynist language on the White House website.
So Frankie, how are you? Where are we? How are you doing?
Frankie
I mean, as a trans person, generally, this sucks. But as a journalist who has been documenting the rise of transphobia and anti-trans rhetoric in this country, I’m not surprised. We have been saying for a while that the goal of anti-trans sport legislation is actually this, what we’re seeing—which is to legislate trans people out of existence.
This was the ultimate goal of the rightwing anti-trans groups that pushed all of this legislation that now exists in over half of the states Because sports was the place where they could make trans people, and trans women in particular, seem threatening. They could couch it in language around fairness, and advantage, and the real marginalization that cis women, and women in general, have faced over time. So sports became the acceptable place for prejudice and discrimination to happen. But the thing is, once you make trans people or any group of people a threat in one arena, it becomes much easier to make them a threat in other arenas.
So a lot of these bills attempted to redefine biological sex. A lot of states that passed these anti-trans sports bills went on to pass more extreme anti-trans legislation against healthcare and education and things like that. So I think there’s this very direct link from the attack on trans people in sports to what we’re seeing now.
The other thing I will mention is the reason that so many people were nervous about the bill that the House just passed—which is banning trans women and girls from girls’ school sports—is that bill also has language that defines gender as binary, as one or the other. And we could see the potential for that language to be broadened to all areas of life. And that is what we’re seeing.
Virginia
That’s what this executive order clearly intends to do. It’s really chilling.
And as a cis woman, it makes my skin crawl the way the language is framed as if it is protecting fragile women and girls. As if a president who is a sexual predator and an anti-choice administration has our best interests at heart.
Frankie
Yes, and I think that’s what makes me as angry as it does, how they have leveraged real marginalization, real harm, real oppression, that women have faced in our society. Instead of pointing the finger at the patriarchy and agents of the patriarchy—often that is cis men—they point the finger at trans women and girls. Even though trans women and girls are actually the most vulnerable and the most likely to be victims of violence. This prevents actual progress for women as a whole, because it pits these two marginalized groups against each other.
This has been a really effective strategy of the anti-trans movement. Instead of allowing cis women to see their own protection and freedom as tied up with trans women, and seeing cis women and trans women as part of the same fight, they have pitted them against each other, and it has endangered both groups even more.
Virginia
It’s dangerous, and it’s just frankly insulting. It’s just like, Trump?? Really?? This known rapist is a heroic protector of women?? I can’t. It’s wild.
But obviously, we know there are plenty of women who voted for him. So we have a lot of work to do. But I appreciate you giving us that larger context and helping people understand why it is so important to talk about trans rights in sports, and how that that is the stepping stone that leads to where we are now.
Frankie
I’ve called it “gateway legislation.” I know that’s making light of something that’s quite serious, but really, the sports legislation has served as that. Because it’s “just sports,” a lot of people didn’t pay attention until it was much too late.
Virginia
Well, not to pivot from one depressing topic to another depressing topic—
Frankie
Welcome to my beat, Virginia.
Virginia
This is where we are! But a story you’ve been following that I really want to talk to you about is the rise of weight loss drug advertising during sports events, specifically during WNBA and women’s college basketball. What is going on here?
Frankie
Great question. Just this past weekend I was watching the new women’s basketball league, Unrivaled, which is so exciting. Until I got an ad for Hers injectable weight loss medication right in the middle. And I was like, Oh, we are continuing the trend, I see.
I think there are a few reasons that this happens. I think there’s an assumption that people who watch sports, and particularly women who watch sports, are going to be more health conscious than the average person. And, as you know very well, in our culture, we associate health with thinness.
For a long time, coverage of women’s sports was folded into fitness coverage, like Health, Women’s Health, and Fitness—those kinds of magazines. And when we talk about fitness culture, we also are talking about these elements of diet culture and beauty culture that come with it.
On top of that, we have this massive boom in women’s sports in terms of funding and sponsorships. Audiences are growing massively. Seemingly every month they’re telling us that there’s hundreds of thousands more people watching women’s sports than there were even like last month. So brands love this, right? They’re desperate to cash in on this audience. So it’s Hers, which is specifically marketed for women, that has this very feminine advertising. Ro is another one that markets explicitly for women.
So there’s this insidious thing happening where in women’s sports, we have this narrative of women’s empowerment and “by women for women,” and the way we talk about them. And then you’ve got this women’s medication that continues on this theme. I think all of that is coming together to really make women’s sporting events an appealing place for these drugs to market themselves.
Virginia
It does really make a sick kind of sense when you lay it out like that. I spent the first decade or so of my career in women’s magazines and writing for places like Self and Fitness, and we regularly featured women athletes, but asked them about their beauty routine and their diet, you know? It was very much like, let’s take this athlete and let’s make sure we talk about her the same way we talk about an actress or a pop star. We want to know her beauty work. We want to know her diet secret. We want to know how she looks so great. So it completely makes sense to take that same framing which was always really patronizing towards these world class athletes, not at all on par with the kinds of questions male athletes get asked, and then assume that the audience is like, “Well, I want to look like her. I need the weight loss drug as well.”
Frankie
The other piece that’s quite paternalistic is the “see her, be her” theme. This is where we position these pro women athletes as role models for the next generation and as inspiration for little girls. And research has shown that girls ages 12 to 18, are the fastest growing market and viewership for women’s sports.
So when you add in the fact that they’re being exposed to these ads, that’s cause for concern, right? Because this is the age group where they’re going to be the most vulnerable to eating disorders. Use of weight loss medications among this age group is also skyrocketing right now. Sometimes that’s for the medical conditions that these medications are designed to treat. But often it’s just because teenage girls who are fat are dealing with so much bullying because of the culture that we live in. So they’re being prescribed these drugs for weight loss. They are the fastest growing age group for these drugs. So these ads feel incredibly insidious. They’re preying on our pre-existing culturally ingrained body anxiety. They’re doing so during these sporting events where we assume that the athletes on the field or the court are able to do what they do— this is implied— because they are in “peak shape.” They are not fat, right? So it’s all just, really icky.
Virginia
Like, really deeply icky.
Frankie
I always want to be really clear that the ads that we’re talking about here, they’re not talking about diabetes as the presenting condition. They’re not talking about some other co-morbid or coexisting condition. They’re talking about being fat as the presenting condition. They’re talking about weight loss as the thing they are selling. So this is the difference between marketing for an actual medical condition that these drugs might treat and marketing by fear-mongering about body size.
Virginia
Yes, super important. I appreciate you teasing that out.
It feels like we need to talk about Ilona Maher a little bit in all of this, because she is a peak example of this, of the role model athlete who is inspiring girls. And, you know, I have felt complicated about her. She’s delightful. She has been really outspoken about celebrating that she’s in a bigger body. She is by no means fat. But she’s tall and muscular, and not, kind of, normative, I guess? By some measures?
And she did that reel that went viral over the summer, challenging body mass index. So I think a lot of folks spent last summer thinking she represents this major positive sea change for how we think about women’s bodies in sports. But as you and I have discussed on the sidelines, we don’t quite see it this way.
Frankie
There’s a world in which she could be representing a sea change, but that’s not the world we live in. I feel kind of bad that Ilona Maher gets caught up in this discussion, because I think it’s emblematic of what happens when we talk about individual people rather than systemic issues. She is being used as an example, perhaps unfairly, right? But I think it’s important because she’s straight and she’s white and she’s cis and her body is acceptable, because of what it can do in a sporting context. I think we’ll probably talk a little bit more about this idea as we keep talking about fatphobia in sports. But her body is acceptable because it otherwise conforms to a lot of traditional ideas of femininity. She wears lipstick, and she was on Dancing with the Stars. She’s joked that she wants to be the next Bachelorette, which is really playing up that straightness.
Ben Watts/Sports Illustrated source here.
Virginia
The hair. She’s got very Pretty Girl Hair, for sure.
Frankie
And that’s fantastic. Ilona Maher is an example of someone who can be both athletic and feminine. But what about athletes who aren’t feminine? Where do they fit in here? We don’t celebrate them in the same way.
But also: What choice does Ilona Maher really have here? During the Olympics, she was the subject of speculation over her gender because of her presumed “masculine” qualities. We’re in a time of trans investigations in sports, where we are questioning the gender of women athletes who don’t fit into certain ideas of femininity. So what option does she really have, aside from leaning into that femininity? Especially if she wants to continue to get sponsorships and recognition. So she’s kind of been backed into an impossible corner here. And at the same time, she’s upholding a lot of these really oppressive ideas of femininity. But, through no fault of her own, either. And again, that’s where I think we really run into trouble, is upholding one particular person as emblematic of a systemic change, or a systemic issue, because it’s impossible.
Virginia
It’s impossible. She kind of can’t get it right.
Frankie
So this is less about actually Ilona Maher and more about the way that culturally, we have responded to her. She’s not the first, or only, woman athlete to put out social media content that challenges beauty norms or body norms. So why is the athlete that we’ve chosen to rally behind the one who is white and straight and cis and all of these more normative factors? There’s a reason that she is the chosen one.
Virginia
Just to go back to the weight loss commercials piece of it for a second, I realized we didn’t talk about them in the context of men’s sports. Are we not seeing the same trend there in terms of this advertising to male audiences?
Frankie
Not as far as I can tell.
I think what’s important to note here is most of the time, it’s not the leagues who are accepting these commercials. This is different than a team sponsorship. Eli Lilly, who makes a couple of these drugs, is a patch sponsor for the Indiana Fever. The Minnesota Lynx have a local partnership with this weight loss program that their coach is an ambassador for. Those are intentional choices. But when we’re talking specifically about these commercials airing during games, they’re purchased through buying ad inventory. I have checked with the league, and the companies, and this is how they are purchased.
So the league doesn’t actually really have the power here to decide whether to accept these ads. The brands choose what events they want to market to based on the demographics of the audiences for those events. This is probably why we’re not seeing that—even though women do watch men’s sports almost equally. Especially the NFL. Over 50 percent of the NFL fans are women. But people are prejudiced and don’t realize that, so we’re not seeing quite that same shift.
But there’s something else happening that I think makes women’s sports particularly appealing to advertisers. These leagues present themselves as progressive and committed to gender equality and empowerment and brands actually find that really appealing. They will choose to align with these brands because it can make them look like they’re more committed to these things, too.
Not only that, but when women athletes are abrand ambassadors, there’s so much more engagement from consumers. I found this number that I thought was wild, and I wanted to share it because I think this is really important. I think it highlights how dangerous it is that these ads are being able to run during these events: 44 percent of WNBA fans have visited a brand’s website after seeing WNBA sponsorships during a game.
Virginia
Oh my God.
Frankie
And 28 percent have bought from a sponsoring brand.
Virginia
That’s wild. Especially when you consider that you’re watching a show with your eyeballs, and seeing the ad on your TV, and then you have to get out your phone and go to the website. That’s multiple steps people are taking to engage like that.
Frankie
I’ve also seen something like the three athletes who are most likely to convert consumers are all Black women: Simone Biles, Serena Williams, and Angel Reese.
Virginia
Interesting.
Frankie
People trust women athletes because of that role model thing. They trust that they wouldn’t align with a brand who didn’t speak to their values in some way. So they’re more likely to buy things when a woman or a women’s sports league told them that it was okay.
Virginia
I’m holding my head in my hands because it’s so much darker even than I realized.
So okay, we turn these women athletes into our role models. They have to lead the children into the future. And then the weight loss companies are, like, “Perfect! We too would like to be aligned with your progressive values.”
Frankie
Yes, it’s incredible. They’re like, “We hired this new female commissioner. Oh no, we have allegations of workplace harassment that won’t stop.” Women’s leagues! Feminism!
Virginia
Oh, my God. It’s so dark. It’s so dark. So that explains why we’re not seeing the same type of advertising at the NFL games. Not that they wouldn’t, because obviously, they’ll follow the women wherever they find them.
Frankie
They will. And I guess there’s something interesting, too, now that I’ve brought up the NFL, and I think this is related to to things that we’re going to continue to talk about. But you’re much more likely to see fat football players than you are fat basketball players. Like, body diversity exists in basketball, but it’s usually in terms of height, right? You have the players that play in the center, who are 6’ 8” and 6’ 9” and the guards shooting from the perimeter are 5’ 8”. Like, you see that kind of body diversity a lot more. But in a game like football, there’s a lot more body diversity in size, in terms of weight. They don’t talk about football players’ bodies as being lithe. So that may also impact where pharmaceutical companies want to advertise weight loss drugs.
Virginia
Yeah, so let’s go there a little bit, because I would love to have you talk more about how anti-fatness shows up in sports coverage and discourse, even in these sports where we do see larger bodies centered, like football, like rugby. But there’s still a larger anti-fat narrative coming in.
Frankie
Totally, right? Because, we just, as a culture, have ideas about who sports are for: Thin people. Which kinds of bodies can be good at sports: Thin bodies. We continue to exclude fat people from narratives about sports, despite the fact that fat people are participating, have participated, and are often excelling at all levels of sport.
So these cultural ideas discourage people who are not thin from getting involved in sports at all. But they are also part of how and why eating disorders are so prevalent among athletes. Even in terms of media coverage and how there’s this anti-fat bias woven into it.
I think we can go back to the Ilona Maher discussion, right? Because I mentioned her sponsorships. So there’s a lot of things that prevent athletes from getting sponsorships. And in women’s sports, athletes who are more masculine presenting are less likely to get these monies and brand sponsorships.
But even if you look at men’s sports, we see disparities. Take football. How often do you see a lineman being the face of a team or the face on the Gatorade bottle? That spotlight ges to the quarterback or the running back or the wide receiver. Their contracts with the NFL are also worth more than lineman contracts. And linemen are more likely to play a much shorter time, and to deal with head injuries later in life. So they actually might need the money more.
And that running back doesn’t score without the lineman blocking and creating the hole for him to run through. The quarterback doesn’t have time to complete the pass if the linemen don’t do their job. So they’re this really huge part of the success of the players who do get the spotlight, but they don’t get the same kind of attention. And that, to me, is anti-fat bias in action. We don’t think of those men as athletes or as the people we want to represent as the pinnacle of athleticism because of what their bodies look like.
Virginia
And you will see their weight casually referenced all the time. The fact that they are so big gets invoked in almost a tokenistic way.
Frankie
Yes, I think about this all the time. I don’t know if people remember this baseball player, his name is Prince Fielder—who is so hot, by the way! I always had a huge crush on him.
Virginia
Googling now.
Frankie
Google his photos from the ESPN Body Issue.
Because he is a bigger guy who did these photos for the ESPN Body Issue, and the way they were talked about was kind of fascinating. Because the thing that ESPN Body Issue has always done really well—and something I’ve always appreciated about it—is it has done a really good job of representing the diversity of athlete bodies. And Prince Fielder is a baseball player who is much bigger than most of the people that we associate with being baseball players—unless they’re catchers, right?
But it was almost like he was a curiosity. People were making fun of the fact that he was featured in this issue. Because men who are fat can be the butt of jokes. So a lot of times, male athletes who are bigger have nicknames about how fat they are, and it’s supposed to be an endearment or a positive thing, but we don’t see that happen with women athletes in the same way. This is the way that anti-fatness shows up for men.
Virginia
I have a childhood memory of my dad talking about a football player that everyone called “The Fridge” and I can’t remember what team he was on. But he had that name because he was as big as a fridge. That was the joke. And when you just think about that afterwards, it’s like, wow, that’s that’s not a nice name.
Frankie
Or they’re compared to their smaller teammates. Like, “Can you believe these people are on the same team?” There’s also that inspiration porn thing, which happens in disability coverage too. “Look, even a fat person can be good at this thing!” Rather than just getting treated and respected as the athletes that they are. These are ways that we talk about athletes who are in bodies that aren’t thin, or are maybe outliers in terms of [the body norms of] their sport. They’re seen as exceptions, and they don’t get the same level of respect and attention.
Virginia
The Fridge’s real name is William Perry. I had to google it, just so we don’t only refer to him by a harmful nickname. And he was a defensive lineman for the Chicago Bears back in the 80s, and later played for the Philadelphia Eagles.
[Post-recording note: William Perry did enjoy quite a bit of celebrity, and sponsorship deals, during his football career, though the media relentlessly reported on his weight and made fat jokes about him. But to Frankie’s point about size-related discrepancies in football contracts and other earning potential, Sports Illustrated reported in 2000 that Perry was working as a brick layer, and in 2016, reported on Perry’s financial debts, substance abuse struggles, and other health problems; at the time he was held in a Britney Spears-style conservatorship by his brother. CW on both links for significant fatphobia.]
Frankie
So I mentioned my book, right? For people that aren’t familiar with it, the National Women’s Football League existed in the 1970s and 1980s. The coverage, though, really could have been written today. It was often really shocking to me how little has changed. But one of the things they would do because, again, we’re talking about a sport like football, where there is a wide variety in the size of the bodies that are going to be on the field. And one of the teams had this woman, her name was Bobbie Grant. Her nickname was SuperSugar, and she was in a band. She was a frontperson, that was her stage name.
Virginia
That’s amazing.
Frankie
And she weighed over 300 pounds, and was a lineman. And I know how much she weighed because the newspapers wanted to tell us all the time. And then they would put the weight of the smaller women next to her. You and your listeners are probably familiar with the trope of the headless fattie, right? Those dehumanizing photographs where the media just photographs their body. So Bobbie Grant would often be photographed from behind, sitting on the bench, so you actually couldn’t see her face. Or she’d be in a side by side with the beautiful, thin quarterback. And Bobbie was a Black woman, too. So a lot of these things came into play, right?
But this is how the media was talking about her. Instead of being like, “This woman is an incredible lineman and is giving her team an advantage because they have Bobbie Grant and no one else does.” And so we can see that narrative, too.
Virginia
It’s fascinating, and it’s really, I think, deflating. I think about this from the perspective of parents putting kids in sports. And I think often, if you have a kid in a bigger body, you’re hoping they’re going to find a safe place in one of these sports where a larger body is an asset. So to understand that actually, they’re still going to encounter this, and it’s going to play out slightly differently than if your kid in a bigger body was trying to be a ballerina, but it’s still going to come up—that’s really frustrating.
Frankie
Yeah, and even sports that have weight classes, that have heavyweight classes, whether it’s wrestling or boxing, they still have weight limits that they often have to adhere to. And so still, there’s a lot of that really harmful dieting or the equivalent of exercise bulimia type behavior that happens around those sports even though there are weight classes.
Virginia
I’ll link back to an episode we did last year, which was an excerpt from Fat Talk, my chapter on sports, where we get into a lot of how the weight classes and the pressure to have the quote right body for the sport impacts kids. And it includes some strategies for how to talk to your kids about this. For anyone listening to this and feeling sort of panicked, but it is. It’s a really, really difficult thing to navigate.
Is there anything else you want to add, about how this anti-fatness intersects with the anti-trans stuff, around how we police athletes, bodies, and especially in women’s sports?
Frankie
You and your listeners know that fatphobia in sports is coming from the fact that we live in a fatphobic society. But that fatphobia often intersects with, and is rooted in, transphobia and anti-Blackness, right? The beauty standards that idealize thinness are based on white supremacy. And those same beauty standards are going to negatively impact trans athletes, Black athletes, and other marginalized athletes.
And we’ve talked about Ilona Maher and the way she is feminine, a particular way that doesn’t fully protect her from some of these questions, but insulates her a little bit.
For athletes who are both fat and trans, they’re going to have these intersecting challenges, right? If they’re good at their sport, suddenly it’s because they have an unfair advantage because they’re trans, right? I interviewed a transfeminine power lifter. Her name is Jaycee Cooper. She’s actually suing the state of Minnesota currently because she was banned from women’s powerlifting. But she talked about how, when she has a good competition, or does well, it’s not because she’s a good power lifter, it’s because she has an unfair advantage, because she’s trans. And if she has a doesn’t do well, and her transness isn’t a factor, she is often subjected to comments that might be rooted in weight stigma.
Virginia
So it’s coming from both directions. Well, it’s really from the same direction. But they’re going to hit both boxes if they can.
Is there giving you hope right now, any any slivers of progress that you’re seeing? Because as you’ve said, there is so much potential for sports to be truly inclusive. But how do we get there, Frankie?
Frankie
There is so much potential, right? Like we’ve named so many different ways a larger body can be an asset in certain sports. And this can allow people and women in particular, whose bodies are hyper-visible and hyper-policed in other aspects of their lives, to find pride in what their body can do, to find belonging and contribute to a team.
When I was reporting my book, I saw this happen over and over again. Women who played football thought about their bodies differently after being on the football field. They took that into other areas of their life. They could walk with their chin held high because they knew that whatever society thought about their body, they knew differently. They felt good about themselves. So I think that there’s so much potential there.
I think a lot about the conversations happening in sports like gymnastics, post the Karolyis (longtime coaches of the U.S. national team, known for their abusive practices). There are still these very specific body standards, but they are shifting. You’re having people say things like, “It turns out having muscle and eating food for energy actually makes you a better athlete.”
Virginia
Who would have thought.
Frankie
I hate that that is progress, but it is.
Virginia
That’s where we are. That is progress.
Frankie
So I hope this continues. I think on a purely recreational level, there are clubs and things that exist, whether it’s just spaces that are going to be inclusive or that are designed specifically for people in fat bodies to participate in a sport or an athletic endeavor without being stigmatized or feeling nervous about having to do that. Those are things that exist.
I think, as we navigate this progress and figure out how we can not just be inclusive, but actively fat positive, I think we really need to be aware of not falling into Good Fatty tropes. Like, you might be fat, but it’s okay because you’re good at sport. We’re assigning this moralism to that. So I think that’s the line that we have to walk when we have these conversations, too.
Virginia
No one has a moral obligation to perform athleticism just because they’re in a bigger body. It’s more about getting doors open so people who have wanted to do that, who haven’t been able to, are in the room now.
Frankie
Right, and the idea that your size doesn’t preclude you from being athletic, but also it’s okay if you’re not athletic, you can do a sport and be terrible at it and find joy in it and that’s pretty, pretty great.
Virginia
That’s so important.
Butter
Frankie
So I have been watching season 3 of The Traitors, which just started. Are you familiar with The Traitors?
Virginia
I know nothing.
Frankie
So it’s a competition reality show where a bunch of reality stars from other networks live in a castle and it’s hosted by Alan Cumming, in high camp, and very Scottish. There are always a lot of queer people, which I really, really love. And I’m a huge nerd about MTV’s The Challenge for anyone that remembers The Real World and Road Rules. The Challenge, I’m going to credit with inventing competition reality television. But it also has like what you see in Housewives franchises, where there are storylines from season to season, because the same people keep coming back.
Virginia
That’s satisfying.
Frankie
So it’s a combination of the two main kinds of reality shows, but it pre-existed all of them. And there have been OG Challenge cast members. They’ve done like 20 seasons of the show. But I consider the people who do The Challenge regularly to be pro athletes in a way, because it’s a physical competition show. But they’re getting older, and their bodies can’t do that anymore, and some of them are transitioning to these other shows.
So I watched Season Two, because my favorite Challenge crush, CT, who they called Castle Daddy, was on it. And no one had heard of The Challenge. Nobody knew who The Challenge players were. And they won that show. They won that season. And they gave interviews afterwards like, “We invented the genre, and we were going to show people that we invented the genre.”
So there’s a Challenger again in the cast this season. And then there are always a ton of queer people. And I just love queer people being campy and kind of making a mess. So that is what I am enjoying and thinking way, way too much about, like, narrative and dynamics on reality TV.
Virginia
I mean, that sounds like the perfect place for your brain to be, especially this week. That’s deeply comforting and absorbing in exactly the right way.
Frankie
I can make anything sports, apparently. Reality TV is sports.
Virginia
It’s very impressive. I’ll do a TV Butter as well, which is my 11-year-old and I are watching Schitt’s Creek right now. It’s her first time watching it. I’m re-watching it, I mean, it’s not news to say that’s an amazing show, but it’s such an amazing show, and it’s really fun to watch with a middle schooler.
She’s really perfecting her sarcasm, trying to banter back like David and Alexis. So it’s very good for honing those skills, which I think is important in sixth grade. And, you know, it’s obviously amazing queer rep. David and Patrick are our love story for the ages.
Frankie
It is a great show. And every time I watch it, there are so many jokes layered in it. Like, it gets better.
Virginia
It gets better.
Frankie
I also just very much feel like David is… My gender is very David Rose-coded.
Virginia
I see that. I fully support that. I mean, he’s amazing. My other rec about it is if you are parenting a sometimes angsty tween, quoting Moira Rose at her is a great way to cut through some of the nonsense.. And then we both laugh and we move on. It’s good stuff.
Well, Frankie, thank you. This was such a delight. I appreciate everything you’re doing. Tell folks where we can find you and how we can support you.
Frankie
The easiest way to find me is my newsletter
. And then I am TheFrankieDLC on Instagram and Blue Sky. I am, like many of us, slowly deleting many social media accounts. So I would definitely say the newsletter is the best place, because I also share the things I publish elsewhere there as well.
Virginia
Fantastic. Thank you for being here!