359 - John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall - Why Christianity?
Sep 19, 2024
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John Vervaeke, a cognitive scientist known for his insights on sensemaking and rituals, is joined by Jordan Hall, who shares his transformative journey of conversion to Christianity. They explore the intricate relationship between faith and cognition, questioning the nature of belief systems. The duo discusses grief, love, and their roles in shaping human experience, while drawing fascinating parallels between Christianity and Buddhism. Their heartfelt dialogue emphasizes authenticity in faith and the necessity of genuine connection in understanding spirituality.
The interconnectedness of emptiness and form reveals that understanding reality requires acknowledging both relational and intrinsic aspects of existence.
Rituals serve as cognitive tools that deepen our engagement with the transcendent, challenging conventional views on their cultural significance.
Faith is articulated as a relational trust that transcends belief, inviting richer dialogues about commitment across spiritual traditions.
Deep dives
The Nature of Emptiness and Form in Zen
The relationship between emptiness and form is a fundamental concept in Zen, highlighting how the infinite is relational to the finite. This duality emphasizes that emptiness and form are interconnected, as expressed in the idea that 'emptiness is form, and form is emptiness.' This indicates that one's understanding of reality is deeply intertwined with these concepts, suggesting that true knowledge encompasses both the relational aspects of existence and the intrinsic nature of being itself. The exploration of this relationship opens pathways to engaging with spiritual practices that transcend mere abstract understanding.
Cognitive Dimensions of Ritual
The discussion addresses the cognitively rich dimensions of rituals, emphasizing their role as a form of knowing that transcends mere repetition. Rituals are posited as ways to connect with cognitive processes that shape understanding, thus elevating their purpose beyond basic cultural or social functions. The significance of cognitive aspects in rituals lies in their ability to facilitate a deeper engagement with the transcendent. This perspective challenges traditional views of rituals and invites an exploration into how they can enhance our understanding of reality and ourselves.
The Nature of Faith and Trust
Faith is examined not merely as belief but as a deeper trust that encompasses relational dimensions between individuals and the divine. This understanding of faith challenges conventional notions by suggesting that both atheists and theists share an inherent commitment to certain primordial presuppositions. The essence of trust is scrutinized to differentiate between empirical trust based on observable competence and a more profound, participatory knowing that invites a deeper relationship with reality. By exploring these nuances, the conversation aims to cultivate a rich dialogue surrounding the nature of belief across different spiritual traditions.
Relationality of Ultimate Reality
The discussion navigates the complexities of how ultimate reality can be understood through the lens of relationality. It raises questions about whether true relationality can exist without a grounding in substance, challenging the notion that God or ultimate truth can be encapsulated merely as a relational entity. The idea that the ultimate must afford the depth of individual relationships is pivotal, suggesting that love and relational dynamics form the foundation of experiencing the divine. This perspective encourages a re-evaluation of theological frameworks, promoting an understanding of God that honors both relationality and individuality.
Eschatology and the Nature of Existence
Eschatological thinking is presented as an essential component of understanding existence within Christianity, emphasizing that reality is not fully comprehensible at any given moment. The notion that a perfect map of reality is unattainable aligns with the belief that existence is a continual unfolding towards fulfillment that transcends current experiences. This perspective acknowledges that while humanity navigates temporal dimensions, there is a draw towards a future that holds the ultimate reality—a 'new heaven and new earth.' The conversation also touches upon how encounters with suffering and joy shape one's relationship with the divine and the awareness of love's transformative power.
This conversation is in part John Vervaeke's response to my previous video with Jordan Hall (The End of Strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnR2PYtLLnI) where we discussed Jordan's recent conversion to Christianity. John fires up some questions, and we discuss different aspects of sensemaking and religious structures to answer the question: Why Christianity?
Original YouTube version: https://youtu.be/Vp_08T0Ucik
REGISTER TODAY FOR OUR NEW SYMBOLIC WORLD COURSE WITH JOHN VERVAEKE: The Cognitive Science of Ritual. Live classes start on October 7th, 2024, 2-4 pm EST on the Symbolic World Circle community. This is a 6-week, 12-hour online course. All lesson recordings will be made available afterward and all materials will be provided. The final lesson will be co-hosted by Jonathan Pageau in a Q&A format. All patrons at the Involved tier or higher get a 10% discount; see your unique code at the top of the course page and apply at checkout: https://www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-cognitive-science-of-ritual Join Jonathan Pageau, Jordan Hall, John Heers, and others in Florida for an exclusive, intimate weekend filled with leisure and hospitality. This November event is a fundraiser for First Things Foundation. Learn more: https://first-things.org/aot
💻 Website and blog: http://www.thesymbolicworld.com 🔒 BECOME A PATRON: https://thesymbolicworld.com/subscribe
Timestamps: 00:00 - Coming up 01:42 - Intro music 02:07 - Introduction 05:07 - John's pov on Jonathan and Jordan's conversation 08:49 - Why Christian faith? 15:38 - Jordan's answer: the Ultimate Map 18:27 - The current dialogos 21:10 - Jonathan: The Christian Escatological map 25:52 - Jordan: Relationship to Jesus 32:20 - Grief and the qualities of love 37:40 - Jonathan: Particularity beyond duality 41:43 - Jordan: A deeper capacity to suffer 44:49 - John: Being is good / Not escape 46:54 - Jonathan: Theosis 49:25 - What if this is a crypto-egoism? 55:26 - Is this the grounding of your Christian faith? 01:01:29 - Zen: Does the infinite love you? 01:11:39 - Intimacy 01:22:18 - We can't be meta 01:27:47 - Universalism 01:29:01 - We each have our callings 01:30:21 - John and Christianity
Our website designers: https://www.resonancehq.io/ My intro was arranged and recorded by Matthew Wilkinson.
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