Dr Debra Kidd is an experienced educator and a truly original thinker with some fascinating insights into what great education looks like, where things are going wrong currently, and how teachers and school leaders can work together to create a more hopeful, equitable future. She has taught in a range of settings across the sector, from primary schools to universities, for almost three decades. She now works with schools in the UK and internationally to develop innovative approaches to curriculum. Debbie has a PhD in education and is the author of four books, the most recent being A Curriculum of Hope. This is a fascinating conversation that explores our collective 'Stockholm syndrome' with regard to exams, the trouble with social mobility and why we should think instead about social growth, and Debbie’s call for what she refers to as 'pedagogical activism'. The Rethinking Education podcast is hosted and produced by Dr James Mannion. You can contact him at rethinking-ed.org/contact, or via @RethinkingJames on Twitter.