Rethinking Education

What happens when we measure children's learning, development and success through a narrow set of metrics? And what gets lost along the way? In this episode, Dr James Mannion and The Real David Cameron speak to journalist Cherry Casey, author of Childhood Ltd: How We Turned Children into Data and Why We Need to Stop, about the growing influence of measurement, data and competition across childhood, childcare and education. Cherry argues that assessment itself is not the problem. Rather, we have become so focused on what can be measured that we risk neglecting the things that matter most – children's wellbeing, self-esteem, relationships, enjoyment of learning and freedom to develop in their own ways. The conversation explores the unintended consequences of high-stakes assessment, the pressure placed on children from an increasingly young age, and the tension between academic attainment and a broader conception of human flourishing. In this episode, we discuss: - Measuring the wrong things: How an over-reliance on quantifiable measures can distort practice and diminish the things that are harder to measure. - The commercialisation of childhood: How market-driven approaches and private investment can shape childcare and education, sometimes at the expense of children's wellbeing. - Starting formal education too early: What happens when academic expectations outpace children's developmental readiness, and why play matters. - Reading for pleasure: Why learning to decode words is not the same as becoming a reader – and how schools can nurture a lasting love of books. - Competition, discipline and school accountability: Whether raising the stakes genuinely raises standards, or simply encourages institutions to perform better against the measures being used. - The hidden costs of high achievement: How pressure to succeed can undermine confidence, self-worth and engagement, even when pupils achieve strong grades. - Rethinking assessment: How we might broaden what we assess and value, including creativity, collaboration, problem-solving, relationships and the ability to apply learning in unfamiliar contexts. - Learning to flourish: Why education needs to attend to the whole child, rather than treating academic attainment as the primary measure of success. The conversation also considers what we can learn from schools that prioritise relationships, belonging and a love of learning, and why listening to teachers, children and families is essential to building a better system. If we change what we measure, we may change what we treasure. LINKS Cherry Casey – The UK has a forced adoption problem (Prospect) https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/society/60185/the-uk-has-a-forced-adoption-problem BOOK: Childhood Ltd by Cherry Casey - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Childhood-Ltd-Cherry-Casey/dp/1837733430 SUPPORT THE SHOW This podcast is brought to you by Crown House Publishing. It’s presented by Dr James Mannion and David Cameron, and produced by Sophie Dean. Get 20% off all titles at https://www.crownhouse.co.uk with the promo code REPOD20 (excludes bundles and existing promotions). Become a patron at https://www.patreon.com/repod or make a one-off donation at https://www.buymeacoffee.com/repod – and help us keep these conversations coming.

Sugata Mitra, the educational researcher behind the Hole in the Wall experiments and School in the Cloud, challenges education’s academic obsession. They explore child-driven learning, AI’s impact on knowledge and curiosity, making versus memorising, the “grandmother method,” and why radically different assessment could transform schools. A provocative look at what education is really for.

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What if one of the biggest assumptions underpinning modern education is simply wrong? We tend to think of the mind as the place where the important stuff happens – thinking, reasoning, remembering and learning – while the body is something we carry around with us. But what if there is no meaningful separation between the two? In this episode, James and David are joined by Guy Claxton and Emily Poel, authors of Bodies of Learning: How Embodiment Science Transforms Education, to explore what happens when we take the body seriously as part of intelligence and learning. The conversation begins with the historical roots of the mind-body split and its influence on education. Guy argues that the hierarchy of subjects in schools – with mathematics and other highly abstract subjects traditionally occupying the top of the pecking order, while PE, dance, drama and practical subjects are given lower status – reflects a much deeper cultural assumption that intelligence belongs primarily to the mind. We then explore the emerging field of embodiment science and the idea of 4E cognition – embodied, enactive, embedded and extended. Rather than seeing the brain as a detached command centre controlling the body, this perspective sees intelligent behaviour as emerging from the constant interaction between brain, body, environment and other people. Guy explains why predictive processing provides such a powerful way of thinking about learning. We are constantly making predictions about the world, and learning happens when those predictions are disrupted – when we are surprised, confused, frustrated or uncertain. Learning, in this sense, is much more than committing information to memory. We also discuss: Why the language of “bodymind” feels so strange at first – and why we should persevere with this term. How our emotions, bodily states and sense of salience influence what we learn. Why the brain may be better understood as a “chat room” than a command centre. What embodiment science tells us about the limitations of purely cognitive explanations of children's behaviour and learning. Why progressive approaches such as inquiry, experiential, project-based and hands-on learning may have more in common than we realise. Whether schools should deliberately cultivate learning dispositions such as curiosity, persistence, empathy and collaboration – rather than focusing primarily on examination performance. Why promising approaches to education have often remained isolated rather than being scaled. The 87 practical things to try in Bodies of Learning, from increasing body awareness to using movement, physical space, play and imagination as part of learning. What an embodied approach might actually look like in different subjects, classrooms and schools. And, finally, Guy's suggestion for the poster that should hang in every teacher training institution and staffroom. This is a wide-ranging conversation about neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, education and human development. But ultimately it comes back to a deceptively simple question: What are schools actually for? If education is partly about helping young people become more capable, curious, resilient, empathetic and intelligent human beings, perhaps we need a much richer conception of what intelligence and learning actually are. About our guests Guy Claxton is Emeritus Professor of the Learning Sciences at the University of Winchester Centre for Real-World Learning, UK, and author of The Future of Teaching and Intelligence in the Flesh: Why Your Mind Needs Your Body Much More Than It Thinks. Emily Poel is a Berlin-based embodiment practitioner and trainer with a background in somatic practices, contemporary dance and history. She develops approaches that show how movement and physical awareness shape learning, thinking and creativity, and has taught internationally for over 15 years.

Sarah Seleznyov, education strategist and co-editor focused on teacher research. Liz Robinson, former headteacher and CEO leading systemic school change. They argue for balancing head, heart and hand. They tackle pedagogy being sidelined, England’s narrow curriculum, systemic reform, authentic leadership and evidence-informed practice. Practical school stories and design-thinking approaches are woven throughout.

Kate McAllister, founder of the Hive in the Dominican Republic, creates child-led, curiosity-first learning with wellbeing at its core. Mike Goves, psychologist and affective‑neuroscience educator, explains why feeling drives memory and attention. They explore how emotional salience, attention’s seesaw, and narrative identity reshape what learning looks like in practice.

Sophie Smith-Tong, a 16-year classroom teacher, wellbeing lead and author of Teacher Autonomy, argues that loss of teacher freedom is a structural wound. She discusses fear-driven micromanagement, 'fidelity' culture versus professional judgment, aligned autonomy (tight purpose, loose practice), how autonomy affects early years and wellbeing, and simple steps leaders and teachers can take to restore trust.

Dee Nic Sitric, founding director of Autism Champions and neurodivergent-led practitioner, explores how invisible power shapes schools. She discusses systemic thinking versus control. Short takes cover power in classrooms, staffrooms, assemblies, psychological safety, and how real participation needs influence rather than token voice.

Sue Roffey, educational psychologist and wellbeing advocate who developed the ASPIRE principles, discusses relational and justice-focused approaches to schooling. She explores agency for students and teachers. She examines safety, inclusion, mattering, and how schools restore curiosity and care. Practical school examples and the Love of Learning project illustrate cultures where connection and learning thrive.

Professor Rupert Wegerif, Cambridge education scholar and dialogic-learning pioneer, discusses how teaching children to reason together reshapes classrooms and thinking. He describes the Thinking Together approach, why group work often fails and how simple dialogue ground rules help. The conversation spans classroom practice, culture as a living tradition, double dialogue with disciplines, and the implications of AI for dialogic learning.