This week's Talkhouse Podcast is kind of a dream episode for me, because I managed to wrangle two of my favorite songwriter/performer/lyricists ever into a conversation, Matt Berninger and Alan Sparhawk.

Sparhawk first came to my attention way back in the early ‘90s with his band Low. Over the course of 30-ish years, he and his wife, Mimi Parker, created an almost indescribably stunning body of work. The early days were characterized by slow, spare, minimalist songs, but over the decades, Low blossomed in a hundred beautiful ways, from stark, almost confrontational music made with Steve Albini to some of the sweetest pop songs you’ll ever hear to their final incarnation, in which they organically integrated some harsh electronics. It’s hard to believe they went so long and stayed so true, but they did. It’s a pretty perfect catalog. Then, in 2022, Parker died of cancer. Sparhawk worked through some of his grief by pushing right back into music, first with 2024’s White Roses, My God, a dense, electronics-heavy album that sounds like confusion itself. Now, just months later, he’s set to release another album, this one called With Trampled By Turtles. The title references the Duluth band that backed him on it, and the songs themselves offer a much more clear-eyed, straightforward look at where his head is at. They’re very different but both really powerful. Check out the song “Not Broken,” which features Sparhawk and Parker’s daughter Hollis on vocals.

I think Matt Berninger, the other half of today’s conversation, feels as strongly about Low and Alan’s music as I do: He’s been listening since before his band, The National, had even come together. Perhaps you’re aware of their history, but just in case: The National has been making incredible records since 2001, finding pretty huge success with cathartic, arena-sized songs that are still always grounded by Berninger’s intentional, literate words. But Berninger, like Sparhawk, has had plenty of side projects over the years, and his second proper solo album is coming out this week as well. It’s called Get Sunk, and it feels like a sort of deliberate step away from any semblance of gloom, with Berninger writing about childhood summers and more innocent times. Don’t get me wrong, these songs aren’t without their emotional perils, but they do feel different enough from his main gig that you’ll notice. Oh, and in case I didn’t mention it, it’s really great. Check out “Bonnet of Pins” from Get Sunk right here.

Sparhawk and Berninger don’t waste much time with idle chit-chat in this episode. They’ve both been through the mental-health wringer over the years, and they explore those low-lows with the benefit, thankfully, of some hindsight. Matt has some really insightful things to say about Alan’s recent solo records, and they dive into their religious backgrounds with perhaps the funniest, potentially deadliest interview question ever asked on Talkhouse: “What are your thoughts on God and religion? Go.” Enjoy.

0:00 – Intro

3:29 – Start of the chat

3:50 – The first time they met

6:58 – The tough times each have faced

12:24 – On finding light on the other side

16:08 – On depression and art

22:17 – On playing music with your kids

29:50 – “What are your thoughts on God and religion? Go.”

38:50 – Music as religion

44:20 – Music as a spiritual experience

Thanks for listening to the Talkhouse Podcast, and thanks to Alan Sparhawk and Matt Berninger for chatting. If you liked what you heard, please follow Talkhouse on your favorite podcasting platform, and check out all the great stuff at Talkhouse.com. This episode was produced by Myron Kaplan and the Talkhouse theme is composed and performed by the Range. See you next time!

Find more illuminating podcasts on the ⁠⁠Talkhouse Podcast Network⁠⁠. Visit ⁠⁠talkhouse.com⁠⁠ to read essays, reviews, and more. Follow @talkhouse on ⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Bluesky⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Twitter (X)⁠⁠, ⁠⁠Threads⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠Facebook⁠⁠.

Ep 018: The Small Church In God's Mission, with Bob Roberts Jr.