[PREVIEW] Just Another Middle-Aged Person on TikTok

You’re listening to Burnt Toast!

We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for… part 2 of our 200th episode!

We are continuing to revisit favorite moments from the podcast archives. Coming up:

🔥We have feelings about aging!

🔥What’s our current take on heterosexual marriage?

🔥How do you set boundaries when you’re in eating disorder recovery but your partner is…on a diet?

And so much more!

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Episode 201 Transcript

Corinne

Okay, so here’s the first question that I picked, from a mailbag episode we ran in January 2023:

Is It Ever Okay to Eat at Chick-fil-A?

What are your personal philosophies on aging, and are you conflicted about it in any sense?

Virginia

I feel firmly that I am someone who was born to be an older person. I think my whole life, I have been working towards being someone in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, who mostly stays in and does puzzles and has plans.

And I think the story I kicked this off with about my one night of tequila sidewalk lying down illustrates how bad I was at being a fun young person, and I’m so glad. I’m so glad I don’t have to be fun and young anymore.

Corinne

Wow, there’s nothing you’re conflicted about? Like, how do you feel about gray hair?

Virginia

I actually feel fine about gray hair.

Corinne

Do you have any?

Virginia

Okay, here is the thing about me and gray hair, I don’t have a lot. I do have several. I am not actively trying to dye them, but I do get highlights, and my very talented hair stylist often places the highlights in ways that distract the gray hairs. Doesn’t cover them completely, but yes. And because I made a self care decision to outsource my hair to her, like about a decade ago, and I just do whatever she wants to do with my hair, because I’m always happy with it. And that way I don’t get, like, worked up about what should I do with my hair? I haven’t yet said to her, like, we don’t have to actively cover the grays, but, like, I haven’t started not dying it, is what I’m saying, because I’m happy with how it looks. But it’s not because I’m happy it’s covered my grays. It’s just that I don’t want to think about my hair that much, yeah. But as I get more grays, I will not be trying to hide them. Am I conflicted about aging? When does it come up for me?

Corinne

Sagging face? Menopause?

Virginia

Sagging face, I will admit to feelings about face sagging sometimes. I do have a lot more chin hair in my 40s. So much more chin hair. And managing that is a hobby I didn’t really want. So that one sure. Menopause, I don’t even know. I mean, my relationship with my menstrual health is like I’m suppressing it all with an IUD for as long as possible. So I don’t know. Menopause could be a gift. It could be a nightmare. I have no idea, but what’s going on currently isn’t great.it’s not like I’m gonna be losing out on some beautiful experience of menstruation. So yeah, mostly I just love having to give fewer fucks about stuff.

But yeah, what about you? You sound a little more conflicted. And we should say I’m older. I’m several years older.

Corinne

Not by much.

Virginia

I’m going to be 42 in a few months.

Corinne

I’m 37 when you listen to this podcast. If I did the math right.

I always thought that I wouldn’t care, and then when I started getting gray hairs, I was like, Oh, I do care. And I have the color of hair that you can’t really see them unless you’re like, up close. But yeah, I just was like, Oh, I feel sad that I’m gonna have different hair in like, a few years. I just feel like tI, like, identify with how my hair looks. But yeah, I don’t know that I will start, like, dyeing it because it seems like a lot of work and money. I think I feel like low key sad about it, but also, like I do feel also good about still being alive and giving fewer fucks.

Virginia

I mean, I think there’s a lot of ways in which I haven’t had to contend with a lot of ageism yet. Because I work from home, I’m not in an office where I think it would be dealing with ageism much more concretely on a daily basis. I think that that would be harder and may become harder. I’m at this point like mostly when I sort of suddenly realized that my age or my weight, either one, has rendered me invisible, like to a man or something. I’m usually like, amused, slash, fine with it, like, annoyed sometimes, but also like, Oh, God, are you really gonna be this cliche?

But I mean, again, there’s like, privilege there. My job is not hinging on how people perceive my age yet. Obviously, the idea of, like, adding more oppression is not, like, exciting, and, you know, the idea of dying one day isn’t like, a cheery thought. But, God. I don’t miss my 20s at all.

Corinne

Don’t miss lying on the sidewalk?

Virginia

It was one night. I can’t underscore that enough.

Corinne

You’re never going to live that down

Corinne

So I wanted to revisit this one, because when we recorded this, we were merely 37 and 42. And now I’m 39 and you’re 44! And we were talking about aging. We have aged. Just curious if we feel the same way or or what?

Virginia

Well, first of all, I just got really excited that you’re turning 40 next year, and I want to know what we’re doing for that.

Corinne

Oh God, I’m already having so much anticipatory anxiety about what I should do.

Virginia

I’m so excited. It’s a great birthday. I had my 40th birthday during COVID. Don’t necessarily recommend that, but it’s a good birthday.

I think my feelings are still very similar. I am still someone who was always born to be middle aged or elderly. I still enjoy an early bedtime. I like puzzles. I like gardening. I am extremely comfortable being in my 40s. I feel just delighted by it all the time. I feel so glad that I feel no pressure to be young and cool. That sounds exhausting.

Corinne

Well, I wanted to bring this up because I feel like I’ve heard you mention in some recent episodes, like the one with Sarai Walker—you were like, “I feel rage sometimes about getting older and not getting noticed or being ignored.”

"I've Thought About Unleashing Jennifer on MAGA."

Virginia

Oh, so now you’re calling me out because I was like, I love being older?

Corinne

I didn’t mean it to be a call out! I just thought, oh, maybe this is something where your opinion has changed. Because I originally had much more mixed feelings about aging as a mere 37 year old.

Virginia

Yes, what was your deal? You were an infant!

Though I actually think that’s normal. I think a lot of times, aging is something where we fear it coming. We get really worked up in advance, and then you do it. And you’re like, “Oh, right, I’m still the same person.”

Corinne

That’s deep. That’s what anxiety is!

Virginia

It’s actually not that deep. That’s just what that is.

So, my feelings about the stage of my life I’m in are the same, which are positive. This season of life is a great season compared to previous seasons.

My feelings about how my aging is perceived by the world, yes, I think are a little more complicated now. Like, when I was like, “I feel great about gray hair. I mean, yeah, I don’t have any, but I would be fine with having it.” I think that’s still true, but I continue to not say, “Hey, let’s stop covering up my grays!” I have yet to be like, you know what? I want to see what my hair is doing!

One change we talked about though: I mentioned my chin hair, and the hobby of managing my chin hair, and I did finally, a few months ago, do laser hair removal.

Corinne

Wait! Why have you not written an essay about this?

Virginia

I don’t know! Okay, this is kind of breaking news? I’ve just finished my eighth session or something.

Corinne

Wow! Is it so painful?

Virginia

Okay, I really probably should write an essay.

Corinne

Yeah, maybe save it for the essay? I just have so many questions.

Virginia

The lip is crazy painful. With the lip, you tear up and want to die for a second, painful. The chin, not so bad. And I have to do my jowls, my whole beard area.

Anyway, so, I guess that is me participating in beauty labor to resist aging. Because my facial hair increased with age, and I didn’t like it and I took it down. I would also say for me, it feels a little gender affirming?

Corinne

It’s gender affirming care.

Virginia

Thank you. I don’t know if that’s problematic to say, as a cis woman?

Corinne

I think it’s actually really good to normalize cis people also participating in gender affirming care.

Virginia

Okay, well, I am for sure participating in gender affirming care then, with my laser hair removal. And it’s the kind of thing that I didn’t do for so long. Even though it is painful and it is expensive, too, so those are reasons not to do it, of course. But it’s briefly painful, and then it removes this daily stress from my life because I’m not every morning like, “Oh, do I have to shave? What am I doing with my chin hair?”

So that’s one change. I did decide this is one aspect of visible aging I didn’t like. And I decided to do something about. I still have yet to do anything like Botox. I have yet to really adopt a skincare routine of any kind besides sunscreen. So otherwise I feel the same. What about you? Any aesthetic-related aging differences?

Corinne

I also haven’t done anything aesthetic. I have done no injectables.

Virginia

Well, we have fat privilege so we don’t wrinkle as much.

Corinne

I definitely have wrinkles.

Virginia

Not as much as if you were thin, Corinne. I am telling you. That famous French actress always said, “You choose between your ass and your face.” And I think we’ve chosen our asses.

Corinne

The thing I’ve been thinking about aging lately is how, if you’re a certain type of person who grows up being precocious in some way? Like you’re smart, and you’re a young, smart person, and then as you get older, you’re kind of like, wait now, I’m just an average old person.

Virginia

You can be a smart old person!

Corinne

But I’m never going to be like a 30 under 30.

Virginia

Yes. Your prodigy days are behind you.

Corinne

Sometimes it’s just weird to not be a young person. Like, oh yeah, I’m just a middle-aged person on TikTok. It’s not a great feeling all the time. But that’s where I am at!

Virginia

I don’t know. I find that sort of relaxing. I think I felt a lot of pressure to be some kind of very special young person. I like that I no longer feel like I have to deliver some degree of unprecedented excellence at all times.

Corinne

I think the self-consciousness of trying to be a young, interesting, smart person probably kept me from actually making TikToks or whatever.

Virginia

And now you do make TikToks!

Corinne

Because I don’t fucking care!

Virginia

Yeah, you’re liberated!

Corinne

I mean, I wouldn’t go that far, but.

Virginia

You’re comfortable with middle-aged mediocrity. We are sitting in our unremarkable era. We are comfortable just existing.

I do feel a lot more comfortable just existing than I did when I was young. I don’t know, people might feel differently. I’m sure it relates a lot to how much you’ve been able to go after things you want to do in your life, so I don’t want to downplay that struggle. I feel less ambitious than I was in my 20s, for sure, which is interesting.

Anne Helen Petersen writes about the portal and how our 40s is often this time of huge ambition for women. And I’m like,Did I just go too hard?I don’t know or maybe it’s still coming! But right now, I’m good just coasting along.

Corinne

For me, the way I think about it is kind of about values. It makes sense that some women or people in their 40s would be like, “I’m going for it.” Like, I’ve realized I really want to do this! Whatever “this” is. And other people are like, “Oh, I realize I actually really value spending time with people and gardening.”

Virginia

Yes! I think that is the shift. I’m like, I want to enjoy my weekends. Leisure time matters more than when I was younger. When it was kind of always like, well, couldn’t you be working harder?

Well, I think we sound very evolved now! Good for us.

Is "Mom Rage" Actually "Marriage Rage?"

I decided to go back to some of our guest interviews because, I mean, Corinne and I are really smart, as just referenced, especially in our youth. But we have so many brilliant guests on the show!

So this is a clip from my interview with lyz, which ran in February 2024 when we were celebrating her bookThis American Ex-Wife: How I Ended My Marriage and Started My Life:

Lyz

I was talking to a friend the other day who was like,my job is just so hard to do with three kids, and so I’m really angry at my job. And I was like, is it hard for your husband to do his job with three kids. Why? Why is it not hard for him? And like, it’s easier to take that rage and channel it to things that we cannot change. Because I think we’re really afraid of what it would look like, like what that other side would look like. I think deep down inside, we know what’s gonna break our relationships. Let’s be mad at what deserves our rage! It’s this system that’s oppressing us. Like it’s not your job because your partner has a job and he can do it. Get mad at the person who’s not wiping the counters. Andit’s exhausting, right? You’re like, Oh, I love him. OKAY.

Virginia

Mm, I love you so much. I mean, we get that people love their husbands.

Lyz

I mean, do we?

Virginia

We hear you.

Lyz

It’s a concept that intellectually I grasp.

Virginia

Yes, right? We’re just suggesting that building your entire life’s happiness based on the premise of romantic love is a shaky business.

Lyz

It’s a shaky business at best. And then people will say like, well, he is a good man, and I’ll never find anything better.

One of the reasons I wanted to write this book is to say you are that something better. And even if you are in a good relationship, you have to be that something better, because, again, you do not know what is going to happen, right? Like he could Charles Lindbergh you! And like, have a second family in Germany. Or, God forbid, die in a car accident, right?

So, like, we have to find ways to center our happiness. And women are not taught to center our happiness. We are taught that life is miserable and that our happiness is frivolous and that we have to throw ourselves onto the pyre of marriage and motherhood. And I’m saying, Take yourself down off that cross, because we need the wood.

Virginia

I picked this because I think we ran this interview when I was—well, I was divorced. I mean, I’m still divorced. But I was more newly divorced. And I still stand by everything we talked about here. I actually really agree with it. But I am interested to note that I feel a little less… militant about some of it, I guess?

I think the core of what she’s saying—that women need to center our own happiness and we don’t need to sacrifice ourselves for marriage and motherhood—that 1,000 percent. I feel in my bones to be this truth that I think so many women are grappling with now.

But I will say, I think we were like, “Can anyone love a husband?” in a way that now I’m a little more like, I get that people do love men.

Corinne

Now that you’re loving another man?

Virginia

Yeah, that’s probably a factor here. I don’t know. I’m curious for your take on this.

Corinne

I mean, I think that makes a lot of sense. I think as time passes, our sometimes militant views soften and evolve. I also think, as someone who has never been married, I can really see both sides. I can completely see why women would be enraged at the institution of marriage, and I can understand why you could come back around to it, you know?

Virginia

Yeah. This isn’t any kind of announcement, people! I’m still pretty angry at the institution of marriage. I want to be really clear about that. I do think she’s articulating something when she says, “I think deep down inside, we know it’s going to break our relationships to name our anger.” I think that is really something I see so often, especially with heterosexual married women.

And I do think that it’s important that we still keep pushing women to name that. Even if a lot of marriages don’t survive that pressure. Those aren’t the relationships that maybe should survive, is where I land.

But I think I’m more interested now in the question of, how can we make something different? What does it look like to be in a relationship that doesn’t replicate all these same systems of oppression? Is that possible? I’m a little more curious about the possibilities now, I think.

Corinne

I think it’s also the difference between being mad at one specific man that you’re married to versus the institutions that uphold these systems.

Virginia

I do consistently look at these relationships all around me, and think, “This man is choosing to participate in something that’s clearly not equitable.” Sir. How are you okay with that?

I mean, I get we all participate in inequitable systems. Any time I buy fast fashion I’m participating in someone’s exploitation. But to live in the same house as the person being exploited by your participation in a system? It does just really stun me from time to time that that happens.

So I still agree with it, but I am a little more like… “What else could this look like?” And I think there’s a lot to be learned from people who are in relationships that are not traditional heterosexual marriages. So I’m learning a lot from that.

"This Was Before It Was Normal for Makeup to Give You New Skin."

Corinne

This next one is about how relationships intersect with diet culture. It’s from another mailbag episode, which also ran in February 2023.

I’m curious about navigating anti diet culture and fat acceptance with a partner—in this case, he’s male and I’m female—who still subscribes to a baseline of healthy eating and exercise that is quite triggering for me. I’m in a small to medium fat body and in recovery from atypical anorexia and exercise disorder. I’ve been invested in anti-diet and fat acceptance for about six years now.

But my husband, though encouraging of my mental stability and happiness, still eats less than me, has some generalized rules about when to eat and what to eat. For example, if you have pizza one night, you can’t have pasta the next night. And he does some form of exercise—stationary cycling, yoga, walks most days. I’m in the process of separating from the web of exercise that has plagued me for the last 20 at least years, and what that looks like for me is canceling all or most forms of regular exercise, even neighborhood walks, and letting the space settle before I decide what if anything I would like to do in that arena.

Basically, I’m just asking what your experience of navigating all this has been like while being with a partner who has been with you before, through and after the shift from diet obsessed to ditching diet mentality. What did / does this look like for you? And any tips you can share on keeping on with figuring out your way of doing things while they keep doing their thing?

Virginia

Oh, this is such a good question. First, I just want to say congratulations on being in recovery and doing this really, really hard work. And I love that you are giving yourself space from exercise and taking care of yourself, that’s amazing.

I have a thing I want your husband to read. It is a piece that ran on autostraddle. I linked to it recently. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Corinne

Yes. The piece is called You Fat-Shamed Your Beautiful Girlfriend and the author is Heather Hogan.

Virginia

I mean Heather, chef’s kiss, all of this. It’s perfection. I want you to share this piece with your husband, because Heather articulates so perfectly the ways in which a partner can harm a partner over this issue. Like the ways in which your husband may not realize or be reckoning with his own fat bias, his own stuff, and like how it’s showing up in your relationship and how unfair that is for you.

Heather talks so well about how loving a person is something we do regardless of what’s happening with their body. If you can’t stand with your partner through body changes, how are you going to stand with them through real crises, like other health issues or job loss, depression, etc, you know?

And it’s just a perfect piece for kind of summing up what I want your husband to be doing for you, which it sounds like maybe he’s not quite there.

And I, you know, I don’t want to, like, shame him for that, like we’re all part of this whole situation. But you were doing this really, real work, and it is valid to say to your partner, your partner, I need you to do some work, too.

Corinne

I don’t even know where to start. Like, I feel like my experience has generally been that it’s really hard to get people on board if they’re not and like, how it’s like, not always possible to convince someone.

Virginia

Yeah, and it sounds like he’s got kind of his own stuff, right? I mean, he’s got a lot of rules about what he eats. Yeah, he’s pretty religious about his exercise habits. And, yeah, I am curious if some of that’s triggering for this question writer.

Corinne

Yeah. I mean, I think this person says it’s triggering.

Virginia

Yeah, yeah.

Corinne

And then it’s like, have you had that conversation with him? Does he know that it’s, actively upsetting for you?

Virginia

How much have you communicated this with him, and what responses are you getting? But I do think just generally being able to radically communicate where you are with this, what you need, not feel bad about stating those needs. That kind of honesty is the only way through and I think. Even if it may lead to some really hard conversations, because he’s in a very different place than it sounds like you are.

Corinne

Yeah, do you have other places that you recommend that people start if they’re trying to get a partner on board?

Virginia

The fact that you have a diagnosis and you’re in recovery, it just says to me that this is so serious and you should be on board with your recovery.

So maybe it’s a question of like, I really appreciate how much you support this in the big picture sense, but in our day to day lives, there are ways that your behavior creates something I have to deal with, you know? And I just feel like, if I knew that some daily routine of mine was causing harm to my partner, I would want to know that so I could assess whether I needed to maintain that routine, you know? And most likely, if I love this partner and am supporting their recovery, I do not need to maintain that routine.

But if that’s hard for me to give up, then that suggests that’s some stuff I have to look at. Because I would argue that your partner’s mental health is more important than you not eating pizza and pasta two nights in a row. Yeah, it sounds like a tricky one. We’re sending you a lot of love, and I hope that this leads to some good conversations for you guys.

Corinne

So since we answered this question, you’ve had experiences navigating body liberation with a new person. And I was just curious if you had any tips or tricks or different changes of opinions on this?

Virginia

I mean, I really stand by all our advice here.

If you’re partnered with someone who’s in recovery from eating disorders, or even just trying to divest from the stuff, it’s really not okay to put your own diet stuff on them. So I think everything we said about like you need to set boundaries, he needs to be more supportive of all of this, I totally stand by.

I think because I put such strong barriers up in my dating profile from the get-go, this has been a boundary that’s been easy to hold, because the people that gravitated towards me were people who are on the same page about this for the most part.

I did go on one date with a guy—not my current boyfriend. Just a one date guy. Where I thought we’d had conversations about this over text… and this is Corinne’s advice forever. Don’t get too hung up on text! But I thought we’d have conversations over text that showed we were really on the same page. And then when we went to dinner, it was very clear that there were a lot of foods he didn’t eat. And he sort of alluded to health reasons, but I don’t know if it was truly health. It was like… vague health things. It was suddenly very clear that this was someone who was not at all comfortable in their own body. And that food was a major source of stress, and something he was putting a lot of energy towards managing.

And, I mean, there’s a reason there was only one date there. I was like, “I can’t take that on.” I don’t want to say it’s a deal breaker, but… I now am with someone who loves food as much as I do, and sharing food together is a major source of joy and delight. We’re both extremely not picky eaters who like to cook together and it’s just so fun. So it would be really hard for me to not have that with someone again.

What about you? Any food stuff coming up in your dating life?

Corinne

I was trying to think about that. I mean, I’m not dating right now. I was thinking in the past, I want to say five years, um, I’ve only dated very briefly someone who wasn’t fat. And I did have a conversation with them that was just like, “Have you ever dated a fat person? Do you have any questions?”

I’ve never really set boundaries, like, “I will absolutely not talk about this or not do that.” But yeah, I do think dating fat people kind of establishes some overlap?

Virginia

Although, I mean, the bad date was with a fat guy. Alas.

Corinne

For me, the dread around those topics is less around food and more around, I hate trying to navigate seating stuff. Like, if we’re like, where are we going to meet? I’m like, is it going to be somewhere comfortable? I don’t want to sit in a booth—that kind of stuff.

Virginia

Oh, totally. And needing a partner who’s going to get that sort of instinctively and know how to navigate that.

Corinne

Yeah, yeah. And I find having to explain that and have that conversation just really unpleasant.

Virginia

Yes. That sucks. That should be more something people think of and anticipate.

Corinne

Yeah, even with friends. Just not my favorite.

Virginia

Valid.

Butter

Corinne
I have a special future Butter. We’re recording this in the past, but this episode is coming out on July 10th. And today is the day that

Lena Dunham’snew showcomes out!

Virginia

Oooh, that’s exciting!

Corinne

And my Butter — because nobody is sending me screeners for that — is “Girls.” I love to watch “Girls.” I think that show has really held up in a way that a lot of comedies of the past have not. I also think at the time, for whatever reason, people didn’t think it was as funny as it is? It’s really funny.

Virginia

I never watched it all the way through! I loved the first season and then I lost track of it.

Corinne

Oh my God.

Virginia

Yeah, alright, you’re making me want to revisit it! I mean, if I’m still watching “And Just Like That,” which is an absolute train wreck.

Corinne

It’s way better than “And Just Like That.”

Virginia

And Lena Dunham is just a brilliant human. I’m excited for her new show, which I didn’t even know about! Hello, Hollywood, we would cover that.

Corinne

Well in the meantime, I recommend revisiting “Girls.” It’s become popular again on TikTok.

Virginia

Oh Gen Z found it? Oh the kids today.

Corinne

Yeah. Still not kid-friendly, I would say!

Virginia

Yeah, my middle schooler and I are finishing up Ted Lasso right now. Which is not not raunchy! But overall more wholesome.

Corinne

“Girls” deals with some dark topics.

Virginia

It goes there! Alright, well my Butter is the dress I’m wearing nonstop, because it’s been 100 degrees all week. This was very much inspired by your recent Big Undies newsletter about clothes that barely touch you, for when it’s very hot but you want coverage. And I shopped many of those links but then I ended up over on Old Navy…and yes this is a fast fashion rec and we said we weren’t going to do those anymore! But I am going to really hope this one holds up. It is a Butter of the moment. I hope it will be a long-term Butter. We will see when we review the year’s Butters.

Clothes That Barely Touch You

But it’s just a very light, crinkly fabric. Really breezy. It’s very inexpensive, I think I paid $30. A great pool cover-up. You could dress it up. And it goes up to 4X and I had to size down, so I think it’s a very size-inclusive 4X.

Corinne

Yeah. It’s a great color.

Virginia

It’s a very fun red. There’s also a more muted olive green and a lavender. And I will also say, I’ve been getting tons of questions about what bra to wear with it, because the straps narrow at the top. And I just let my bra be visible. So my other Butter is not worrying about bra straps. I’m fine with visible bra straps. It’s 100 degrees outside. And if the jig is up, because people were otherwise assuming I didn’t wear a bra, like…I’m okay dissuading them of that fantasy. So I wear one that’s the same color as the dress and don’t care about it.

Corinne

I feel like a bathing suit top could be fun. In a contrasting color.

Virginia

Yes! Well, thank you all for being here for 200 episodes! We are so grateful. We love making this podcast for you.

We want to hear what you want to hear more of in the coming months. And we’re going to keep doing it. Let’s do another 200, Corinne!

Corinne

Wow.

Virginia

Corinne is not committing.

Corinne

Oh, I’m committing! I’m just like…Wow.

Virginia

Can you imagine we’re at 500 episodes? We’ll be so, so much older and wiser! Maybe I’ll have embraced my gray hair by then, who knows?

Corinne

Or fully rejected it.

Virginia

It could go either way. Stay tuned.

The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies!

The Burnt Toast logo is by Deanna Lowe.

Our theme music is by Farideh.

Tommy Harron is our audio engineer.

Thanks for listening and for supporting anti-diet, body liberation journalism!