The hosts dive deep into the contentious debate surrounding systems thinking. They recap their strong reactions to Ed Braden's article and highlight varied listener responses, from agreement to skepticism. Key discussions include the importance of precise language and mutual understanding in this context. Jeffrey shares his motivation for engaging with Ed's critique, while emphasizing the need for evidence-based conversations. They tease a forthcoming rebuttal to Ed’s claims, keeping the audience eager for more insights.
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insights INSIGHT
Why The Debate Began
Ed Bradon's article critiqued systems thinking as a source of many government ills and suggested people overreach in controlling systems.
Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick felt compelled to respond because they value systems thinking and saw flaws in that critique.
question_answer ANECDOTE
The Original Heated Response
Jeffrey expressed a strong, uncompromising disagreement with Ed's conclusions during the previous episode.
Douglas recalls the episode as heated and notes it generated substantial discussion online.
insights INSIGHT
Engage To Update Your Map
Jeffrey treats this as an intellectual conversation and wanted to take Ed's arguments seriously to update his views.
He values participation in a reality-based discourse and wanted to learn, not just win an argument.
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Were we wrong about systems thinking? In the first episode of a three-part series, Squirrel and Jeffrey revisit the contentious discussion around system thinking and their reaction to an article by Ed Braden. They hear from listeners, as well as Ed himself, emphasizing the importance of precise language and shared understanding.
Links:
- Ed Bradon's article: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/magical-systems-thinking/
- Ed's reply on Twitter: https://x.com/EdBradon/status/1971266284990976361
- Previous episode/rant: https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/someone-is-wrong-on-the-internet-about-systems-thinking
- Shape Up episodes:
https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/ryan-singer-on-basecamp-and-shape-up-part-i
https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/ryan-singer-on-basecamp-and-shape-up-part-ii
https://soundcloud.com/troubleshootingagile/ryan-singer-on-basecamp-and-shape-up-part-iii
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You'll find free videos and practice material, plus our book Agile Conversations, at agileconversations.com
And we'd love to hear any thoughts, ideas, or feedback you have about the show: email us at info@agileconversations.com
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About Your Hosts
Douglas Squirrel and Jeffrey Fredrick joined forces at TIM Group in 2013, where they studied and practised the art of management through difficult conversations. Over a decade later, they remain united in their passion for growing profitable organisations through better communication.
Squirrel is an advisor, author, keynote speaker, coach, and consultant, and he's helped over 300 companies of all sizes make huge, profitable improvements in their culture, skills, and processes. You can find out more about his work here: douglassquirrel.com/index.html
Jeffrey is Vice President of Engineering at ION Analytics, Organiser at CITCON, the Continuous Integration and Testing Conference, and is an accomplished author and speaker. You can connect with him here: www.linkedin.com/in/jfredrick/
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