Welcome back to the unSeminary podcast. We’re talking with Jay Kranda this week, the online campus pastor at Saddleback Church in California.

What are you doing with online church? How does it fit in with your digital strategy? How can digital tools strengthen in-person community? Tune in as Jay discusses a team-based approach to digital integration, how to align digital initiatives with your church’s mission, and avoiding the pitfalls of over-reliance on technology.

• Be strategic with digital ministry. // Be wise and strategic about how you use the online aspect of your ministry. Streaming services have become a staple in many churches, but Jay advises leaders to consider the purpose behind it. Digital elements should complement rather than replace in-person interactions. Ask your team what they are trying to accomplish and explore how digital can help achieve those objectives.
• Enhance the church experience. // Jay uses the Alpha Omega tool, a resource for church teams to identify and focus on one digital integration over the next 6 to 12 months. This tool helps in tracking progress and encourages digital involvement from all ministry areas, not just the online pastor. Talk with all your leaders about one way they can use digital to enhance what they’re doing in their ministry areas. It could be as simple as sending parents a text about what their children learned in kids ministry in order to foster family engagement at home. The idea is to enhance the church experience through digital with the goal of helping people produce more fruit in their lives.
• What is the role of digital in your larger strategy? // One of the significant advantages of digital tools is the ability to engage with newcomers immediately. Instead of relying solely on large events, Saddleback also uses a podcast strategy for connection and support in certain contexts. Determine where your line is when examining what could be done digitally versus in-person. Bring together everyone with influence in your church and discus what you believe needs to happen in the room versus what can be decentralized.
• Don’t be distracted by trends. // It’s easy to get distracted by all the new digital trends out there. Be aware of the allure of “silver bullet” tech solutions where a single app or tool is seen as the answer to all ministry problems. Focus on tools that align with your church’s overall strategy and objectives. Avoid replicating what others are doing without considering its fit for your specific community.
• Enhancing discipleship. // Jay’s book, Online Church is Not the Answer: Beyond Just Streaming Church to Hybrid Disciple Making, delves deeper into these concepts, urging church leaders to move beyond merely streaming services and instead use digital platforms to enhance discipleship. Pick up copies for your team and discuss how to embrace digital in your various areas and determine how it fits with your church’s objectives.

Visit jaykranda.com for a hybrid disciple making starter guide, information on his book Online Church is Not the Answer: Beyond Just Streaming Church to Hybrid Disciple Making, and more helpful resources.

EXTRA CREDIT // Level Up Your Church’s Digital Ministry: Exclusive Resource!

Are you ready to transform your church’s digital presence? In this episode, we’ve tapped into the wisdom of Jay Kranda, Saddleback’s Online Pastor, to help you expand your reach and engage your congregation online. But listening alone won’t get you there. We’ve crafted a downloadable guide to take this learning further and turn it into action.

Introducing the 10 Essential Tools for Church Digital Ministry, a resource designed to give you the step-by-step tools to engage, grow, and serve your community more effectively online. Whether you’re just starting out or looking to fine-tune your digital strategy, this guide will help you make the shift and keep your church moving forward.

Don’t miss out—unlock your church’s digital potential today by downloading this resource through unSeminary Extra Credit. Grab it here.

Thank You for Tuning In!

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Episode Transcript

Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Really looking forward to today’s conversation. We have a repeat guest today, which if you’re a longtime listener, you know, that just does not happen that often. And the reason why is because you are going to want to lean in and listen to ah this conversation. And I think it’s going to just have huge impact on you and your ministry. It’s asking one of those questions that literally I get all the time. This is not theoretical. This is this is like a real conversation that’s impacting churches today.

Rich Birch — Excited to have Jay Kranda with us. He is a part of a church you may have heard before, Saddleback Church, ah which was planted by Rick and Kay Warren. Their first public service was in 1980. They have 14 locations in California, Spanish locations, five locations internationally, and a robust online community. This is why we’re talking with Jay today. He is the online campus pastor, has helped build an online community of thousands viewers thousands of viewers weekly, hundreds of online groups in small to mid-size in-person gatherings who are just connected with Saddleback. This is really incredible. He has a website, jkranda.com. Jay, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.

Jay Kranda — Thanks for having me on. I’m, I’m excited to be back. I’m, I’m excited that I’m one of the few repeat. So I’ll put that on my trophy case.

Rich Birch — Yeah, it does not happen that often. So I knew, ah you know, I wanted to get you back on. So I’m honored that you’re you’re here. Let’s kind of catch people up before we, well, first of all, what did I miss on the just bio? What was it, you know, what did I miss about you or about, ah you know, Saddleback that we need to make sure people are aware of?

Jay Kranda — Yeah, I I would just say at a high level, you know, we are a, um you know, obviously a very big church, but we’re all also very practical in the sense that we’re always trying to be, um you know, even big organizations have limited resources in the sense we have to be super narrow and focused.

Jay Kranda — So one thing that I think most people don’t understand is When we’re doing something, we’re trying to align it with our objectives pretty clearly. So even online has been this, and because I’ve been, you you know, the online pastor full time since 2013…

Rich Birch — That’s old school.

Jay Kranda — …um, there’s been waves of what does that look like pre COVID, during COVID, now post COVID.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — And so I would probably add that we’re pretty practical and dogmatic with like how we think about digital. And, uh, it’s been fun. And a lot has changed even as we’ve transitioned from our founding pastor to our our new pastor, Pastor Andy, and it’s it’s been a fun fun journey.

Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it. I’d actually love to start there. You were on ah before the transition to Andy, who we’ve also had on the podcast. Love him. He’s a great leader. And it’s been, I’ve said to him and other members of your team, I I love as an outsider cheering for you guys in that transition. And it’s like, man, so much of what ah he and Rick, you know, not surprising, world-class leaders have done such a good job in the handoff. But what about in your area? What is your diagnosis on like, here’s a few things that have changed or shifted in our approach under Andy rather than under Rick.

Jay Kranda — Yeah, you know, the thing that I I always notice with Pastor Rick was Rick was always a believer in um using technology to accomplish the objective. But I think at times Rick was an anti-technology. He just was probably, you you had to convince him it was a good idea because um probably because of when he was born, he had seen a lot of things come and go.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And, um, and so with, he he was never against what we were doing. He was just, okay, we got to prove it. And so I think there was a little bit of a generational, like, okay, the great idea. Let’s see if it delivers.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Where I’ve noticed with, uh, Andy, because he is younger, you know, he’s in his early forties. We’re only separated by a couple of years. I’m only a couple of years younger than him. He is more in the, in the arena like he just kind of uses technology and he gets it. And so it’s been really interesting to watch somebody that’s maybe grown up around it in a very different way where it’s not a, you know…

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — …I know this with my kids, you know, I have a 13 year old, 11 year old and an 8 year old, you know, I’m not gonna be arguing why the internet is a thing. Like they’re not even gonna have a concept of what the internet is because it will just be like the air they breathe.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jay Kranda — And with Andy, it was more of just the air he breathes. And so I just noticed, like for example, like a big thing with Saddleback starting in the eighties, we were one of the first churches on the internet. We were one of the first churches in the early 2000s to stream. But we did it primarily as a, uh, it accomplished like, for example, we started streaming in the early 2000s because we have a location in Orange County. People go to John Wayne and travel for work during the week or the weekend. And we wanted to just provide this very simple, uh, supplement.

Jay Kranda — I think now what we’re seeing more and more, and this started under Rick, but I think Andy more just believes like, hey, you know our job is not to ah get people in a building, our job is to produce fruit in people’s lives.

Rich Birch — Amen.

Jay Kranda — So can digital enhance that objective?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And so it’s and it’s almost like, and we can get into this, but one of the things I always kind of encourage church leaders is this idea that you’re asking your people to do a lot at a base level. Like come on Sunday, serve in a ministry, maybe be part of a Bible study or group. Then they’re probably bringing their kids to things. And then anytime you add another thing, that’s another thing on top of their work, their marriage.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And the question is, does it need to be another, hypothetically, does it need to be another event in your building? (Let’s say, as as an example.)

Rich Birch — Right. Right. Right.

Jay Kranda — Or could a deliverable be a digital experience? And those are the things I’d like to bring up. Like, I think, for example, I don’t think the core physical experience is ever going anywhere, but I do think digital can be laid on top of things in such a way, if the objective isn’t just to fill a room. And I always like to challenge, like, I think there’s a lot of things we do as churches, like we just always run the same play because we’ve always run it.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — But maybe like, for example, like a great example is this podcast. Like you could do a in-person event.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Or you could do a podcast…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — …and maybe in some cases the in-person event’s super valuable, or maybe the monthly podcast or the weekly podcast is a better deliverable.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And so I think I’ve just noticed more of the question of like, can we use digital this way…

Rich Birch — Oh, it’s good.

Jay Kranda — …while also keeping the in-person experience as kind of maybe our core kind of thing we offer.

Rich Birch — Yeah, love it. Well, man, it’s so good. There’s a bunch there I want to dig into. But before we get there, I want to frame up the conversation a little bit. So friends, if you’ve been listening in to the podcast, you know, it’s actually very rarely have authors of books on like, I get people all the time reach out to me and are like, I got this book. And like and it’s like, oh, I’ve really been lit paying attention to your podcast. I’m like, yeah, that’s not true. I know why you’re coming on. Like, I know that.

Rich Birch — Jay has a book that just came out that I wanted to get him on the podcast, and I want to be really explicit about this, because I think every church leader that’s listening in should pick up copies of this book.

Rich Birch — This question of what are we doing with online church? How does this fit in? It’s like, if it’s not top of mind, it’s like in the top five questions that I keep hearing people wrestling with. And so his book, so what I’m hoping is you’ll listen in, well there’ll be some helpful stuff in here, but the outcome I’m going to ask each of you to take is to buy 10 or 15 of these, put it on your list for, it might have to be 2025, kind of your next reading round with your team. And wrestle through and get more clarity on why your church is doing this. So the name of the book is Online Church is Not the Answer—fascinating when I saw this with the title of your book…

Jay Kranda — I know.

Rich Birch — …ah Beyond Just Streaming Church to Hybrid Disciple Disciple Making, I think, and that’s Jay Kranda. So what I want to do is is dig into this. Let’s start with that opening volley question. So what do what we’re thinking in-person versus how do these tools, how do these digital tools, how can they strengthen in-person community and not just run in some sort of parallel ministry?

Jay Kranda — Yeah, so I think at a high level, and and I’m kind of obviously, I’m playing around with ah with my title in a very direct way.

Rich Birch — Yes, yes.

Jay Kranda — And I was afraid I was afraid I was going to lose some of my friends in this space.

Rich Birch — Oh. Kenny wouldn’t like you anymore.

Jay Kranda — Like yeah, Kenny, Kenny, Kenny wouldn’t like me. Uh, Dave wouldn’t like me.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Dave Adamson.

Jay Kranda — I would have, I’ve all sorts of friends. There’s a, there’s a, I have a couple of friends that I will say that I feel they haven’t texted me back as quickly.

Rich Birch — That’s funny. Love it.

Jay Kranda — So, um, and so, um, but I, I, but I, so to me, one of the things that I just noticed is I am a strong proponent of, and I think it’s really hard for anybody to argue against this, that in-person ministry is the, is at the top of the experiences. So I use this example in my um and my book that I got from another friend, um this idea that digital should be used as the way you use digital in a relationship or in your marriage.

Jay Kranda — So like my wife and I, we text, send each other reels and we’re constantly interacting. I was just traveling earlier this week and you know I text her an emoji when I landed in Texas…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — …and we’re texting, but I come home to her.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — And the reason is because I think our primary way that our relationship should function is proximity based. And I think that that is a, that’s a good illustration that um digital, that’s how you should think about using digital…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — …and any technology in the context of your geo type of ah strategy of a church. And so like, yes, don’t be afraid of digital, use it in a way to enhance, but always come back to the primary expression, which is in-person.

Rich Birch — I love that.

Jay Kranda — And, but I also am very aware that digital can get in the way of our relationship. I can send the wrong texts. I can look at the wrong thing online. I can get disconnected. Like there’s all these things.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And so you got to be aware of this tool. It’s both a something we got to wield very wisely and strategically. And so to me, I, this is where like, there are a lot of cool things that are happening online.

Jay Kranda — But I also like when somebody does a story like we we launched a couple a year ago, we launched a virtual reality service online. And the problem is with that is we did it because we have somebody in our community that builds VR spaces. We didn’t have to spend a dime.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And but everybody wants to talk to me about it. And and I’m like, I’m like, our VR ministry is not for everybody.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — It’s for like the one, one-percenters.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda — And the average church shouldn’t be thinking about this.

Rich Birch — No, yeah, yeah, that’s good.

Jay Kranda — Because really VR is just modern day evangelists. That’s all it is.

Rich Birch — Right, right. Yeah, it’s so fringe.

Jay Kranda — And so they want to look at guys doing this or and and don’t don’t get distracted.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jay Kranda — So with with kind of what I lay out some tools and I have I have this on my website too if somebody doesn’t want to buy it. But like one of the one of the things with this is to kind of go, okay, getting your team together and going, okay, everybody on the team, if it’s staff, volunteers, whoever, what are we trying to do with our team, our ministry? And going, okay, our primarily, this is what we’re trying to do. The question is, can digital help with that outcome?

Rich Birch — Right. Oh, good, good, good.

Jay Kranda — And so it’s being very practical. And healthy 100% digital integration doesn’t mean replacing physical. It just means it’s integrated.

Jay Kranda — So I have this example that um I was like with our kids ministry. Like if you look at most kids ministries at church, the healthy, a hundred percent healthy digital integration into kids ministry is not canceling your in-person programming on the weekend And during the week.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Of course, of course. Ah during, even during COVID, um, my kids, I’m here in Southern California and we were like crazy locked down during COVID. I remember when our kids ministry launched Zoom groups during COVID…

Rich Birch — Love it.

…I didn’t want to do it.

Rich Birch — No?

Jay Kranda — Because my, because my, my kids were on Zoom all week…

Rich Birch — Right, right

Jay Kranda — …for school.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Don’t need more Zoom.

Jay Kranda — And I told, and I remember one of my friends was like, Jay, how are you not like, you’re the, online… I go, no, no, no, it’s a balance.

Rich Birch — Yes. Yeah. That’s good.

Jay Kranda — It’s a, I believe in it, but when they’re on Zoom all week, like I don’t want, I, I, you know, and so we figured out some other things. So like a practical example is…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — …like I remember I had a I had this moment where my my daughter was, I was talking to my wife about something I was learning in my own devotion time and it was about the flood and there’s something cool I read in a commentary and my wife kind of like glazed over. Like she didn’t care about, she like jokingly didn’t care about something I thought was cool.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jay Kranda — And she said, but do you know your daughter just learned about the flood in um our kids small group this past week.

Rich Birch — Oh, wow. That’s cool.

Jay Kranda — And I had this realization that I had no idea what my kids learn in our kids small group.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And I actually, I went to our kids pastor at the time and I said, Hey, have you thought about maybe monthly or weekly sending a text to every parent of a talking point?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — Like, hey, you’re your kid just learned about this. Here’s one question you can ask to engage. And so I bring that up as as as an example. The digital technology integration for our kids ministry could be a simple texting plan, like strategy.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good.

Jay Kranda — It doesn’t need to be, you’re going full YouTube and you’re introducing, you know, VR chat and no, no, no, no. It’s a very simple integration. And so part of it is going, telling all your leaders from staff to volunteer, what is a simple integration that can enhance what you’re doing?

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — And this is the flip side. Everybody thinks digital is going to transform everything. No, no, no. Some things will be transformed and some things will be enhanced. A taxi industry was transformed by digital because of Uber.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — The hotel industry was enhanced. You still go to a hotel…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — …just your experience has been enhanced.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — And so I think the church experience is not being transformed. I think it’s being enhanced. And it’s just, what are the small little things that we can do to really focus on your objective? And I think there are things you can integrate that are really simple and help you do more of what you need to do.

Rich Birch — Love it. Love that. I had a friend, we were talking about apps in the church and they said something very similar, just a different way to frame exactly what you were saying. They were like, you know, Starbucks doesn’t think about their, you can’t get coffee from the Starbucks app that, you know, like you can’t, you don’t go to your phone and like beep, beep, beep. And then, you know, ah whatever mochaccino comes out or whatever. You know, Carmel Macchiato, that’s not what happens. ah But the app makes the in-person, in their case, delivering coffee makes it better, more efficient. It solves problems. It makes that a better experience. And this this church leader was saying, that’s really what we’re trying to think with our app. We’re not trying to replace the, you know, the in-person. But we do want an app that will end up improving that experience.

Rich Birch — So help us frame this. Let’s double click on that idea of like, Hey, we’re trying to in, in use a digital tool, the drive that. You give some good examples there. Let’s think of the church of like a thousand people. You know, maybe I’m an executive pastor listening in and like, there’s a guy, there’s like a 23 year old who oversees this stuff. And how do I, how do I help that person discern what would be a few things that we should be thinking about?

Rich Birch — Cause I think so many of us got streaming our services and we just did it before whatever reason, but we’re not sure what kind of the, you know, what would, should some of these steps look like? What could, what could be a couple examples of things that churches of that size should be kind of wrestling through?

Jay Kranda — Yeah, I think one of the best exercises as like a team, a leadership team potentially is to figure out where your line is of what you are more open to be done digitally and what should happen in person. I think everybody’s line is going to be a little different. And so II usually kind of like one of the helpful exercises that I kind of lay out is um getting everybody that has influence in your church um in the same room and kind of going, Hey, like, here’s here’s what we believe needs to happen in the room and here are the things that we believe we can decentralize.

Jay Kranda — And I think sometimes just having a very honest conversation about it, like we had this conversation during COVID and I remember like I had one of our senior leaders who’s a super wise dude. he I remember we were talking about moving our, ah we were exploring at the time, ah stop printing our programs and moving to a, digital program.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — And we’re having this tension because we were kind of being forced because of COVID and some of the restrictions.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And I remember we were going to kind of move more to a digital app strategy. And one of our senior leaders said, um he said, I just don’t want to encourage people to pull out their phones in church because they’re going to start doing other things. And…

Rich Birch — Interesting.

Jay Kranda — And I, it was a good thought…

Rich Birch — Right. That’s an issue. Yep.

Jay Kranda — …like it is a, it is a thought. And I, so and I, I just push back. And I bring this up as an example, because you need to have these conversations. so everybody understands the role of digital in your larger strategy. But I said, I go, I go, I totally understand that. I go, but what if, what if we don’t treat the phone or the device as like this plague that’s ruining them, but we actually talk about it in a way to help them have better discipline with it.

Jay Kranda — So like, for example, I’ve seen some churches do this and we’ve stole this like, Hey, by the way, you know, we have, we have this, we have some notes in front of you, or you can download our app. Hey, I want to encourage you, if you open up your app, can you put your phone on do not disturb and just zero in the next one hour.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — And I know it’s going to be easy to go add something to your card on target or Amazon, but just, to you know, right, right now, just put your phone or do not disturb, but you can use this. But use it to help them reign that device in like. And so I think we need to have these questions around how do we think about this?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And like, for example, like very practically. Um, we like a funny example would be like, uh, we’re, we’re a church that believes baptism is by full immersion. That’s one of our convictions. We’re never going to do an online baptism. And so like, like I I’m, I’m not going to argue against what somebody’s doing online.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, you’re not dissing the people that do that, you know, yeah.

Jay Kranda — But like, I know my lines. Like even like simple things like communion, all these things, you got to figure out what are the things that…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And this is where like a younger person can bring those things. And if you can have an open dialogue about the role of digital, and I lay out some things in, in kind kind of the resource to kind of think about this. Like, where’s the line?

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda — And to go, and then you might find out, like, one of the things I really encourage younger leaders especially is, you you want you want an older leader to give you all the authority right away. And I would encourage you to prove yourself in small ways that you can…

Rich Birch — Right, take some steps.

Jay Kranda — Because because ultimately you’re a steward of your pastor or your elder board’s vision. And you got to function under that leadership.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And so I’ve done this where I’ve proven myself in small ways over years, and I’ve been entrusted with more. And so this is where it’s like, sometimes the young leader wants to do all this crazy stuff. And I would just say, take small steps. So I think having a, a really honest conversation where the lines are, and then I would even encourage, even if that conversation doesn’t go right.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Check in.

Rich Birch — Oh, good. Yeah, I love that.

Jay Kranda — Like you check in like six months, a year later and go, what has moved? Because I’ve noticed that I’ve seen things my church changed their mind on…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — …stuff that I pitched a long time ago.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And I’m like, Oh my goodness. And I could be like, I could be whiny about it. Or I can be like, Oh no, because we were faithful in these areas, stuff has grown.

Jay Kranda — So I think that’s one area. And then, and then I I just think at a high level, one of the biggest things is figuring out what the real win is. So like, for example, Like I think a lot of churches are, are talking about this idea of the role of streaming your church services.

Jay Kranda — Like what, why do we do this? How do we do this? I think practically you don’t need to stream everything.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda — You can stream one thing; you can let’s talk about that. And, and then how do you drive those people to take next steps? But those are some of the outside of having, you know, I have this Alpha Omega tool where I encourage every, every team to kind of think about one integration over the next six to 12 months. And then you kind of track that. And I think that’s one of the more helpful things is to get, um, every team member, every volunteer thinking about digital integrations.

Jay Kranda — Cause that’s, that’s the one thing I’ll say, Rich…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — …that drives me crazy is when you hire an online pastor, which is not a lot of us, that’s not a normal thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Get them to think about it. None of us need to think about it now.

Jay Kranda — Yeah, yeah, nobody else has to think about it. And I go, we have, I’m an online pastor at my church because we’re one of the largest churches in the world.

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jay Kranda — Like the average church is not going to have an online pastor…

Rich Birch — Yep, yep, yep.

Jay Kranda — …doesn’t need an online pastor. I just need the, I just…

Rich Birch — Shots fired.

Jay Kranda — I know. I need the kids pastor, the student pastor, the executive pastor, the secretary, whoever they see, I need them thinking about digital.

Rich Birch — Yes. This is so good. Dude, that’s good.

Jay Kranda — And not, and not outsource it to one team member.

Rich Birch — Yeah. Love it.

Jay Kranda — And I need all the volunteer teams.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jay Kranda — Like I need everybody. Because honestly, and that’s half of my job now is like, I’m trying to paint that vision of like, let’s think bigger than just, Hey, Jay does that in his team.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Cause I think that’s the future.

Rich Birch — Right. They’ll Jay will tell us; Jay will figure it out.

Jay Kranda — I know.

Rich Birch — Yeah. I love that. And that’s a part of why I’m encouraging people to pick up copies of the book. Cause I think that’s actually a much more compelling position…

Jay Kranda — Yes.

Rich Birch — …which is how do we find, how do we embrace digital in our various areas? All of us saying, okay, what’s our, where how does this fit in what we’re doing? What’s that look like? um And this could be a way to kind of encourage that. One of the things you talk about in the book, one of my core convictions of a leader is that one of the definitions, the things we do, is we leave things better than we found them. That are, by definition, you know, are you leading? It’s like, well, things should actually be getting better. You’re you’re taking people from where they are to a more desired future. That is kind of its core with leaders.

Rich Birch — And you really talk about, ah you know, always be improving, looking for ways to, you know, how do we, you know, kind of keep on top of our strategy, keep it fresh, keep it improving, like looking at like, what should we be doing different? Talk us through what that looks like. How do we balance the like, we want to improve, do a better job on this front versus we’re constantly chasing the latest, you know, silver bullet, you know, the latest. Do all of us really need to be on TikTok, and whatever came after TikTok? You know, how do we, how do we, bring how do we brace, you know, kind of work through that? And this feels like a tension in this area.

Jay Kranda — Yeah, there I I I just came from a tech conference, a church tech conference, and and it was a really good one, but I I was funny. I was sitting on like the conference floor…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — …kind of where they had all the booths, and I kept hearing all these pitches, you know…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — …things.

Jay Kranda — And I understand the role of that.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — But I really have disliked the save your tech model of if you get this app or get this thing, it’s going to solve all your church’s problems.

Rich Birch — All your problems. Yeah. That’s just not true.

Jay Kranda — And I think the answer is, that’s not going to happen most likely.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — I think it will solve a problem if it’s a problem for your church.

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — But I saw this with, um you know, we were one of the first churches um to get an app, a mobile app. And I remember hearing some of these pictures how the mobile app is going to like help you do this, this, this, this. And I was just like, really, a lot of our apps are just media players. Like the YouTube app can do the same thing.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda — And, and I, that’s an exaggeration…

Rich Birch — Yep.

Jay Kranda — …but I think to think the average church needs a media player that’s, that’s, you know, folded into an app. No, like that doesn’t solve problems. And so I think first I, and I, and I think this is why it gets distracting. There are so many things that we need to be doing. and so many new trends that um it’s easy for us to get clicks or say the thing like, this is going to save you. This is going to, if you buy this thing, it’s going to, you know, AI. Like if you, if you use AI, it’s going to help you do this. And I’m like, yeah, if it aids in your objective, like.

Jay Kranda — And so this is where like one of the things is I think church leaders, unfortunately, you know, one of the, one of the strengths of the internet is an abundance of information, but the weakness of that is that it’s super distracting. And so I think church leaders leaders have to be more focused on their target on their objectives. And so like the problem is it’s really easy for you to copy and paste what I’m doing. But the problem is that might not work um in Florida, in Washington, in Canada. Like you have to know. And so the platforms that are relevant to me may be different.

Jay Kranda — And so this is the the strains we’re the strange aspect of the internet is that we’re connected to everybody, but we’re more segmented than ever.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda — And it’s it’s a really, I mean, you you see this with TV shows and movies, it’s really hard to get people to go to the movies now.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — The type of viewers that are showing up to the movies or even watching TV shows is a fraction of what it used to be back in the day, because it’s so distracting. You can just go on YouTube or TikTok or Instagram. Attention is the new kind of scarcity type of thing. And so I say that like, I would encourage any church leader, like do not get distracted by the new thing, but ask the question, okay, if we get on TikTok, hypothetically, how is that helping us?

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Where does that help in our methodology of how we’re producing disciples? And this is where I’m going. Yeah, like I believe in being on those platforms. But I believe on it because of my church’s strategy and our objectives.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda — And so like for a very practical example, um I I’m I’m the online pastor of my church. I have a community of people that engage online and we also start house churches connected to our online stream. I’m not on TikTok, I’m on Instagram.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — And I zero in just on Instagram. And there’s reasons for that. And, and so now could I easily duplicate our strategy on TikTok?

Rich Birch — Sure.

Jay Kranda — Yeah, I could, but I’m not because I don’t believe, um, that’s where my community, I would rather have a hundred percent of my people on Instagram. Then 60, 30 kind of split it between two.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — Now that doesn’t mean TikTok isn’t a bad platform, but I’ve made this strategic decision to introduce a little bit of scarcity of our time and our kind of our platform. And so this is why it’s tough is that there will always be something new around the corner another device, another thing and I think you just got to be super focused. And but the the the I I’ll say it this way that the crappy part of this is the average pastor doesn’t get to think about this stuff.

Rich Birch — Right, right.

Jay Kranda —Like they just don’t have the bandwidth. And this is why this is why um I I wish we could be better at being honest about what the thing delivers.

Jay Kranda — This this is why, for example, I have an iPhone 13 and not an iPhone 16…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda —…because my 13 does 95% of what the iPhone 16 does.

Rich Birch — Yes. Ouch. Ouch. You’re sounding like an old man, Jay. You’re sounding like an old man. Just kidding. Just kidding.

Jay Kranda — I know, no, and I know, I know, I know I I am, and I I am aware that, you know, I think the older you get, you do have to be more aware that maybe I could get a little bit more, uh, you know, grounded in my own history.

Rich Birch — No, no, I’m just kidding.

Jay Kranda — But I think you got to ask, like, of course it would be fun to have that. It’s funny. My, my, we just got our oldest, his first phone. He’s about to turn 14. And he has an iPhone 15.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jay Kranda — And I had to have this real conversation with myself internally. Like, does it really bother me that my son has a better phone than me?

Rich Birch — Or what does it say about me that it bothers me?

Jay Kranda — Yeah, I know, I know.

Rich Birch — And that’s the question I would be, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jay Kranda — And I’m like, so I keep, but it’s funny, like, like my, my internal dialogue, that’s dumb. Like, no, like I’ll just get a phone.

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah.

Jay Kranda — Cause we were going to upgrade, but I haven’t seen this. But like the, I say all this like fun and games, but I think it’s like, don’t just get the new thing cause it’s a new thing.

Rich Birch — Yeah, don’t get to get the latest thing.

Jay Kranda — Like, does it move your strategy forward? And and that’s hard. It’s hard. It’s even hard for me at times to navigate. B ut I provide some things to kind of outline, to kind of think about that more strategically.

Rich Birch — Well, and yeah, this is true on, you know, this is listen, I’ve had that a version of that conversation with a lot of church leaders where um I’m and this is I i get now i’ll it’ll be take my turn to sound like the crabby old man. But like, so many churches will be like, man, we need to get—and it’s like whatever the latest thing is—like the app, the whatever, whatever everybody’s thinking about. But then I’ll come back to him like, yeah, but like, what are you doing with your new here guest data that you collect every single weekend? Like people show up to your church and they fill out a card, or they fill out some online form. Are you leveraging that? Like, how about we start with the kind of low hanging fruit, stuff that’s right in front of you while we’re also looking at all this other, um you know, kind of the latest thing.

Jay Kranda — Which like one of the most ah compelling reasons to move to a more digital type of um program or next step in your service is before, for example, somebody fills out a response card or whatever you call it at your church.

Rich Birch — Right. Yeah.

Jay Kranda — Somebody would have a card. Then that would have to go to some volunteer that documents it, maybe puts it on an Excel spreadsheet or something. And then that information gets to a team and hypothetically if you’re really quick, maybe you’re doing it on Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening. Or maybe in some cases, a lot of churches Monday or even Tuesday, because they take Monday off

Rich Birch — Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jay Kranda — But one of the things we got to do when we went to primarily digital in this moment, like, Hey, scan this or go here and fill it out. We get to say stuff like… and Pastor Andy’s like a master at this. But We get to say, hey, if you fill out this response code right now, by the time you get to your car…

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jay Kranda — …we’re going to have the information in your inbox.

Rich Birch — Love it.

Jay Kranda — And like that. So why did we go to a digital program? Not because we’re scared of COVID, not because of whatever. And yeah, did we save money on printing every week?

Rich Birch — Sure.

Jay Kranda — Yeah, we did. But primarily it was because if we moved to digital, we can respond to them immediately.

Rich Birch — Yep. Yeah. Love it.

Jay Kranda — That’s a compelling reason to do that.

Rich Birch — Yep. For sure.

Jay Kranda — And so I think you gotta you gotta think, what are the areas that are compelling? Like like i I tell this story in the book of like, we ah we had this big parents event and um and this is kind of like a famous story internally at Saddleback where we we wanted to encourage parents to raise biblical kids and do all this stuff. But we planned this big of event. It happened on a but on a Saturday and it kinda, it was a dud. It didn’t go well.

Rich Birch — Okay, okay.

Jay Kranda — And we kinda had this big internal, kind of conversation around, well, we’re asking parents to come on Sunday, serve in a ministry, be part of a group.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — They also have kids activity. They’re married. They’re doing… Like maybe doing a Saturday morning event…

Rich Birch — Yeah.

Jay Kranda — …isn’t the great deliverable. And because there are other priorities, um, maybe the deliverable shouldn’t be a twice a year big event. And we actually decided to move that event to a podcast strategy.

Rich Birch — Right. Love it. Love it.

Jay Kranda — And, and, and again, podcasts are not the savior.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jay Kranda — I know like so many people are doing podcasts, but I would go like, that’s a very, like maybe, like, I think there are a lot of affinity type of strategies at churches, like men’s women’s podcast, single, single pay, like you can do a monthly or a couple of times a year, but maybe a podcast or some kind of group experience, um, could be a good deliverable.

Jay Kranda — And that’s where I go like that’s where digital can enhance the strategy, doesn’t have to completely transform it. But those are the type of things um and then this is why I will say I want to get everybody in the room together to kind of walk through what the lines are…

Rich Birch — Let’s talk about it.

Jay Kranda — …because you need more people pulling triggers and figuring out what are the integrations that make sense.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — And you as the senior leader cannot be the one figuring this out. I do not have all the answers.

Rich Birch — Right. Right.

But if you get trust me I know there are people small business owners or you know large business owners that at attend your church. They’re thinking about this and they might have a really good idea. ah to help you integrate digital and technology in a very strategic way. I’m always being introduced to new stuff and I’m like, Oh, I had no idea.

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — But again, this is where like, if you’re the curator and you’re the one only figuring out the answers…

Rich Birch — Right.

Jay Kranda — …I think your strategy can be very limited, but you got to empower more people. And this is why this is why having an exercise where you get everybody in your room, you talk about this, and you go through the Alpha Omega tool and you kind of think about it. You’re going to have a lot of cool ideas. And and that’s what I try to encourage is get everybody engaged in thinking about integrations.

Rich Birch — So good. So good. Well, as as you can see, friends, this is why I want to encourage you to pick up copies. Obviously you can get it at Amazon and and, you know, Jay’s website and stuff, which we’ll come to you in in a minute. But any kind of final words, just as we’re looking to land today’s episode, that you want to make sure that, you know, leaders think about this whole area, um you know, of digital strategy, church online streaming, all that stuff.

Jay Kranda — Yeah, I would say one of the things is I would really encourage you to, especially as church leaders, one of the things is that church leaders, we tend to be a good at preserving the truth. It’s part of the strength of Christianity. Like we we kind of have preserved the truth. But at the same time on the flip side, we have a long history of killing people when we introduce too much change at once.

Rich Birch — Okay.

Jay Kranda — And I think it’s very natural to revolt against change. I think there’s reasons why we preserve things. So I say that like, I think some of the internal muscles that ah Christianity has is that we don’t adapt sometimes quick quick enough. And I say this as, there are tools and technology and things you might need to use at your church that may not be your preference, but it may be the preference of the people you’re trying to interact with or reach.

Rich Birch — That’s good.

Jay Kranda — And I say that like, I get it. Like like I watch this with my own kids. There are things they do even with the generation difference between us. Like I don’t really love how much they scroll on YouTube. Like like they scroll so quick. And I’m constantly ah like, I’m like, Oh my goodness. They have the spazziest brains sometimes because of these 30 seconds, 60 second clips. But I also am aware, like I have on the flip is the people I’m trying to reach that might be how they’re wired. And there might be opportunities for me to, I need to adapt.

Jay Kranda — I’m way more adapt to make stuff that’s 30 minutes long versus 60 seconds long. And I might need to adapt if that’s my thing. And so I would say try to focus on what are the people you’re trying to reach. Um, and even if you’re less digitally savvy and you’re less on new tech, again, I kind of jokingly say this, if, if Paul, uh, Paul got Timothy circumcised for the sake of the gospel, I think we can use some tech and digital in a way that, uh, that I know that’s going to be the lasting thing.

Rich Birch — Yes, that’s good. That’s the quote.

Jay Kranda — I think we can use some things that we’re a little uncomfortable with.

Rich Birch — Yes.

Jay Kranda — So I would encourage you for, for the sake of the gospel.

Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good, so good. Well, friends, you can see why I think you really should be tracking with Jay and picking up a copy. I said Amazon, are there anywhere else where we want to ah you know encourage people to pick up copies of this book?

Jay Kranda — Yeah. So you can get on Amazon and Apple books. There’s also an Audible version…

Rich Birch — Oh, nice.

Jay Kranda — …that you can go through. And then the Audible, I do provide a PDF…

Rich Birch — Great.

Jay Kranda — …so that all the graphs and tools you can follow along. I also sell some team bundles. If you wanted, uh, the MP3 and kind of a PDF, I sell some team bundles on my website that are way more affordable as well.

Rich Birch — Oh, nice. Yeah.

Jay Kranda — But thank you, Rich. You’re, you’re, you’re like a life coach too. You’re super encouraging. So thank you for, uh, I love this. I love, I love being on.

Rich Birch — Well, I appreciate you. What would give us your web address again?

Jay Kranda — Yeah, jkranda.com, j-a-ykranda.com.

Rich Birch — Okay. Great. Thanks so much. I really appreciate being here and I hope, uh, you know, wish you the best and, uh, you know, just thank you for what, for all you’re doing both at Saddleback and in this part of your world. You could just be working away on your own thing and the fact that you’re trying to help people, I really appreciate that. So thanks so much, Jay.