Jeremy Lent (Part 1) - Big Picture Systems Thinking: A Key Practice for Understanding, Transforming, and Preserving Civilization

Ep. 141 (Part 1 of 2) | Award-winning author of The Web of Meaning and founder of the Deep Transformation Network, Jeremy Lent, relates how his discovery of systems thinking opened the door to a whole new way of making sense of the world and illumined his in depth exploration of what creates meaning. In looking into what forms concepts like God, soul, humanity, nature, and science, Jeremy came to understand the thinking that has led to the existential crisis we face now, then began to explore what it would take to break out of the worldview that has caused so much destruction on so many levels. Jeremy integrates systems thinking with concepts from evolutionary biology, neuroscience, ecology, and traditional and indigenous wisdom, forming a holistic view of science, where “maybe the distinction between science and spirituality isn’t really valid.”

Jeremy’s heartfelt intention is to act as translator—to make it enjoyable for people to explore difficult concepts like consciousness and evolutionary biology they might otherwise steer away from—as well as be a catalyst for large-scale transformation. His vision of a potential future “ecological civilization” builds on the evolutionary success of life itself—ecosystems living in mutual symbiosis—and includes the idea of “islands of coherence” which would provide a bridge from a disintegrating society to a new and flourishing one. Systems thinking, like indigenous wisdom, recognizes the deep connectedness of all things, a realization, Jeremy points out, that leads to the knowing that nothing is inevitable and the choices we make matter. Jeremy leaves us with a sense of agency and of liberation, as well as a sense of responsibility to work together in the shaping of a life-affirming, sustainable future. Recorded June 20, 2024.

“Every aspect of our world today is founded ultimately on the worldview of reductionism…If we were to design or co-create a civilization built on a sense of deep connectedness, it would look very different.”

(For Apple Podcast users, click here to view the complete show notes on the episode page.)

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 1

• Introducing Jeremy Lent, award-winning author, integrator, founder of the Deep Transformation Network (01:15)
• What does meaning come from? Where do mainstream concepts like God, soul, humanity, and nature come from? (02:58)
• What’s considered valid science turns out to be reductionism and Jeremy’s subsequent discovery of systems science & complexity science (05:25)
• Jeremy’s intention is to act as translator—make it a joy for people to explore concepts like consciousness and evolutionary biology (08:50)
• The concept of reductionism (09:36)
• Where reductionism goes wrong and why systems thinking is so important: studying the relationship between things (12:19)
• Richard Dawkins attributes everything to our genes, but the reality is far more complex (13:53)
• What the modern worldview of reductionism has done to our society (16:59) 
• Jeremy’s new book, Ecological Civilization, applies the principles of ecology that life itself evolved to every aspect of our civilization (18:43)
• The difference between the metacrisis and the polycrisis: is there something meta, above all the crises, that we need to be aware of? (20:44)
• The reductionist worldview creates a separatist world that allows for resource exploitation: capitalism is the economic manifestation of a worldview of profound separation (22:29)
• Moving beyond the dichotomy of individual good and common good (26:57)
• Individual flourishing, fractl flourishing, holon flourishing (30:38) 
• The evolution of life itself: learning to cooperate in mutually beneficial symbiosis (34:00)
• How do we break out from the zero sum game we are stuck in? (35:18)
• Our dominant system is beginning to unravel: weaving together small islands of coherence while the dominant civilization crumbles (39:16)
• What are examples of “attractors,” sources of coherence for us to build on? (41:52)

Resources & References – Part 1

• Jeremy Lent’s website: https://www.jeremylent.com/
• Jeremy Lent, founder of the Deep Transformation Network
• Jeremy Lent, The Web of Meaning: Integrating Science and Traditional Wisdom to Find Our Place in the Universe*
• Jeremy Lent, The Patterning of Instinct: A Cultural History of Humanity’s Search for Meaning*
• Richard Dawkins, The Selfish Gene*
• Fritjof Capra, The Turning Point: Science, Society, and the Rising Culture*
• Systems theory
• Reductionism originally started with Descartes
• Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations*
• Ayn Rand, author, developer of objectivism
• Jason Hickel, Less Is More: How Degrowth Will Save the World*
• Fredric Jameson, “Someone once said that it is easier to imagine the end of the world than to imagine the end of capitalism…”
• Ilya Prigogine’s small islands of coherence
• The Commons with David Bollier (The Permaculture Podcast on YouTube)
• Elinor Ostrom, Governing the Commons: The Evolution of Institutions for Collective Action*

* As an Amazon Associate, Deep Transformation earns from qualifying purchases.

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Jeremy Lent is an author and speaker whose work investigates the underlying causes of our civilization’s existential crisis, and explores pathways toward a life-affirming future. His award-winning books, The Patterning Instinct: A Cultural History of Humanity’s Search for Meaning and The Web of Meaning: Integrating Science and Traditional Wisdom to Find Our Place in the Universe, trace the historical underpinnings and flaws of the dominant worldview, and offer a foundation for an integrative worldview that could lead humanity to a flourishing future. He has written extensively about the vision and specifics of an ecological civilization and is founder of the Deep Transformation Network, an online global community exploring pathways for a deep transformation toward a life-affirming future on a regenerated Earth. Author website: jeremylent.com

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell