#545 - The Secrets of Successful Amazon PPC Campaigns Unveiled

Unlock the full potential of your Amazon advertising efforts with the expertise of PPC maestro Destaney Wishon of BTR Media, who brings a wealth of knowledge to our illuminating discussion on Amazon PPC strategies. Listen as we dissect the limitations of relying solely on ACoS metrics, advocate for sales volume and profitability harmony, and delve into her firsthand experiences with Helium 10’s powerhouse Amazon PPC tool, Adtomic. The conversation takes a turn into the synergy of PPC and organic ranking approaches, providing you with actionable insights to enhance your ad campaigns and achieve success in the Amazon marketplace.

Get ready to navigate the tricky waters of Amazon PPC campaigns for non-repeat purchase products, where we tackle the tactical acceptance of losses to build organic rank and the criticality of budget allocation for long-term gains. The episode is packed with rich strategies, including leveraging Amazon's Search Query Performance reports and optimizing bids with precision. Discover the art of juggling multiple product variants in PPC and the effectiveness of single keyword campaigns, all while managing to maintain a robust presence in a competitive niche market, like supplements.

 

Our TACoS Tuesday program culminates in a robust discussion on keyword match types, revealing how exact and phrase matches can coexist without cannibalizing each other's potential. Destaney shares her valuable insights on sponsored brand video ads, the finesse of managing bids outside of Amazon's console, and the tactics for handling unprofitable long-tail search terms. From the strategic considerations for small-budget brands to the nuances of keyword research and Amazon PPC tips for new sellers, this podcast episode is a great resource for anyone looking to elevate their Amazon advertising game and carve out their brand's success.

In episode 545 of the Serious Sellers Podcast, Bradley and Destaney discuss:

• 00:00 - Amazon PPC Strategy Q&A With Destaney
• 02:44 - Understanding PPC Strategy and Metrics
• 06:06 - Custom Bidding Rules in Adtomic
• 10:00 - Amazon's Impact on Organic Ranking
• 13:08 - Establishing Product With Profitable Keywords
• 16:11 - Maximizing Amazon Product Visibility 
• 19:24 - Controlling Bids for Amazon Search Results
• 21:05 - Amazon Advertising Strategy and Optimization
• 23:39 - Day Parting Strategies on Amazon
• 25:22 - Amazon PPC Strategy and Keyword Research
• 26:47 - Amazon Seller Strategy and Consumer Behavior
• 30:25 - Improving Product Visibility on Amazon
• 35:56 - More Amazon PPC Strategy and Tips
• 42:18 - Understanding Amazon Suggested Bids

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Transcript

Bradley Sutton:

Today we've got one of the top minds in all the Amazon PPC world, Destaney, back on the show and she answered all of your live questions on Amazon advertising that, actually, this was no doubt the best set of questions we've ever had on the show. How cool is that? Pretty cool, I think.

Bradley Sutton:

If you're like me, maybe you were intimidated about learning how to do Amazon PPC or maybe you think you just don't have the hours and hours that it takes to download and sort through all of those sponsored ads reports that Amazon produces for you. Adtomic for me allowed me to learn PPC for the first time, and now I'm managing over 150 PPC campaigns across all of my accounts in only two hours a week. Find out how Adtomic can help you level up your PPC game. Visit h10.me/adtomic for more information. That's h10.me/adtomic.

Bradley Sutton:

Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of the Serious Sellers Podcast by Helium 10. I am your host, Bradley Sutton, and this is the show that is our live monthly TACoS Tuesday program, where you go over anything and everything Amazon PPC related, and we throw in a little bit of Walmart here and there, as well. And so, for those who this is your first time to the show. What we do is we bring on an outside expert once a month to answer live on all of our platforms, your top PPC questions. There's no question that's too basic or no question, hopefully, that's too advanced. We'll answer them all. So let's go ahead and invite our very special guest. For the first time since last year from BTR media, we've got Destaney in the house. Destaney, how's it going?

Destaney:

Whoa. Well, now you have me a little nervous. You said you know, hopefully we don't have any questions too advanced. We'll see what happens.

Bradley Sutton:

Well, for you, like, I might not say that for all of our guests, but you know, since Destaney's on here, it's like, nah, like you can ask anything.

Destaney:

We'll see what happens.

Bradley Sutton:

Give us a quick bio of yourself for those who might not have heard your previous episodes and previous years here and this is the first time I'm listening to you.

Destaney:

Yeah, of course. So I've been in this space for seven years, worked everything from some of the largest brands on the platform to also the small sellers. I feel like we've worked with a lot of people that have gotten up and gotten ready and launched, and I've done nothing but Amazon advertising for seven years straight. So I think personally, I've managed over $500 million worth of spend, every category, every scenario I think I've dealt with this point. Used to be founder of better AMS, we've now rebranded to BTR media.

Bradley Sutton:

Now that we've established, you know, what you're talking about, we're just going to hop right into it. Before I get to the user's questions, I had some things I wanted to ask. I'm going to ask some questions about Adtomic. I have got some general questions, but actually, first let me get to the general question. So I know there's been a, I don't want to call it a movement lately, but maybe there's more awareness of in the industry about, hey, it's not always just about ACoS when you are trying to, you know, determine or strategize with your PPC. But my question first of all is there a certain level that that statement applies to? Like, if I'm a brand new seller and you know I don't have, you know, this big budget to and I'm not trying to build this humongous brand and try to get awareness out there, should I still be maybe using that as my primary metric? Or if so, is there a certain level where all of a sudden, I need to be shifting my metrics I'm looking at?

Destaney:

I think, in simplest answers, you should always be shifting your metrics. In the beginning, cash flow is king. That's what matters the most, right, especially as a individual seller. You are financing every next round of inventory and if you can't afford that inventory, you're not going to have a brand. And how do you make sure you can afford that inventory while making sure that, marginally, you're in a good spot, which is where ACoS comes into play, right, you can't just hemorrhage money.

Destaney:

That being said, when you're launching, you also need to make sure you're driving volume and improving your organic rank and getting more review. So I think, in the very beginning, ACoS may be less important as you're driving that velocity. It's more about margin. So, all that to say, I think there's a million different variables. We have brands that come to us and like hey, our only goal is a $3 row. As this is a marketing budget, it doesn't influence anything else. We have brands that come to us that are solely focused on profit margin at scale. So we need to make considerations for what that looks like.

Bradley Sutton:

Love it. Love it. All right, excellent. Now let's go hop in Adtomic because, you know, for the first time you and your agency are getting into, you know, using Adtomic and using it for some of your clients. You've only been doing it for a couple of months now. What are some of your initial kind of reactions, like how, what are the strengths that you guys have been noticing about it?

Destaney:

Well, I think there's a few things I want to hit on here is one, our agency has always used Helium 10 from like a keyword research, organic rank, BSR tracking perspective, which is why I was like, hey, let's see if there's better integrations we can do.

Destaney:

Everyone who's been following me knows I preach the relationship between PPC and your organic rank. So that was what was really insightful for us is like okay, let's see what it looks like. Managing it all within one tool and being able to track that overall relationship. At its simplest, I think Adtomic drives a lot of value. And giving you one view of all of that, I mean, you can go immediately into your search terms tabs and pull up search volume, and that you know. As anyone who's managed a brand, I get millions of questions of why are my sales down week over week, and being able to overlay things like search volume is super important, I mean beyond that. Day parting hourly parting is always a hot topic within the industry and being able to stay in tune with all of those new rollouts or generative AI. Those are things that most of the industry is behind on right and you've always relied on native ad console to make those adjustments. But now having in a tool that allows the simplicity of scale has been a major value add.

Bradley Sutton:

Awesome. Awesome. Now, one of the things that Adtomic has released in the last few months or so is the ability to make your own custom rules. You know, we always allowed you to make a certain level of custom rules but now even for your bid management. And so you know, as we just mentioned, you know, obviously you know some people might still be doing ACoS, people might be doing RoAS impressions. There's so many different things and we pretty much allow anybody to choose like, hey, whatever you do, this is what you should.

Bradley Sutton:

This is, you know, you can go ahead and implement it in Adtomic. Now, you know, having, you know, spent some time in there, what would be your suggestion First of all for, like you know, maybe a newer seller or, you know, medium sized seller, if I'm looking to, like, create my own rules for bidding. There's literally a million possibilities so I might be overwhelmed. I know there's no one size fit all answer here, but maybe can you give a couple ideas about what you would suggest somebody to do to put in Atomic so that it manages their bids effectively.

Destaney:

Yeah. I'm going to start philosophically here, in that I always say that anytime a software opens up the Black Box and allows for rule creation, they're putting themselves in a risky position because, in my opinion, most sellers don't actually understand bid management appropriately, right. It's only like the advanced sellers that can really hop in and truly understand bid management. So the fact that you all have opened it up for everything and taken that risk is huge in my opinion because that is the biggest flaw of some of the softwares in the space is they don't give you that customization. All of that to say everyone who's like hey, I have all of the power to, you know, give myself a 5% ACoS. Be careful, because a tool is only as good as your ability to use it. Like, truly. I've audited and vetted almost every single platform.

Destaney:

I feel like we've gone through building our own rules customizations. Most people don't actually know bid management well enough to build their own rules, but if you do, I think the biggest things that we look at is we create rules for the different outcomes we want. If we're launching a brand new product, then we're creating rules that are based off sales. So we're going to be taking a deep dive into hey, what is the conversion rate and what is the sales? And we're going to build rules for maximizing that increased bid when I have a certain conversion rate.

Destaney:

On the flip side, if our goal is profitability, we're going to work backwards from our ACoS or our RoAS goal. We're going to say, hey, let's build rules that are based on lowering bids when our ACoS is too high and maybe layering in our conversion rates also low, let's go even lower, right. So those are the two simplest ones that we look at, but it really needs to be strategic. You can create rules that are based off the phase your product's in, whether it's launch, consistency, profitability, organic rank. You can create rules based off your overall business outcomes, which is always an important one is what is that key RoAS that you're going to optimize for all of your campaigns, but just making sure not to over complicate it in the beginning. And once you start to understand the correlation between CPC and RoAS, then you can start building in a little bit more customization around lifecycle and things like that.

Bradley Sutton:

One more of my questions. I get to be selfish and stop in the host here and decide when to bring in the user's questions. But just going back to that topic of ACoS versus other metrics, I think there's so many people who have for years, just that's all they've thought about and they're like well, doesn't it make sense? Like hey, if I'm losing profitability because I'm spending more for my advertising and this is how much it's costing me per sale, like should I always just automatically lower my bids because I need to be profitable? But can you explain why? No, that's not always the case. That might actually be hurting you in the long run.

Destaney:

So the reason it's become so much more important to not always focus on a low ACoS is because Amazon's search results have become more saturated with ads. I think everyone amen right from the pews here. The reason being is obviously Amazon's making a lot of revenue off their advertising but also they've done a great job of their relevancy and still having a clean customer experience. The problem with that is if you start slipping an organic rank and you fall to page two or page three. There's a joke of, you know, the best place to bury a dead body is page two of Google. Well, Amazon's very similar right. A lot of people don't go to page two and page three. So if your organic rank starts slipping, you're going to be in a tough spot. Now, why does your organic rank slip? Well, you either have a decrease in conversion rate or you're not driving the amount of sales or units as your competitors, right?

Destaney:

Anyone who's watched Bradley's honeymoon period philosophy knows that a lot of these factors influence your organic rank. So there's a level of Amazon advertising that just drives sales, and we know sales improve your organic rank. So your PPC directly correlates with your total sales, right. The more sales you drive, the better your organic rank is the more reviews that are going to be left, which is going to improve your conversion rate, which is going to drive more sales, which is going to thus spin the flywheel. So that is why it's really important to understand the PPC relationship between your total sales. You know some people we've had quite a few clients say I'm going to stop PPC completely, which is fine for 30 days. Your profit's amazing. And then 60 days or 90 days or 45 days later, their rank starts dropping and now their total sales are decreasing even more. And, as we know, with profit there's economies of scale. You may want to drive a lot more units at a lower profit margin, but still end up with a higher overall profit if you improve your organic rank.

Bradley Sutton:

Let's go ahead and hop into the live questions we've got from YouTube. RH says we're optimizing a mature campaign. How frequent should I do it and what is the look back window you prefer?

Destaney:

I'm going to start with look back window. That one's easier to answer. We typically look at last 30 days. The reason being is you don't want to really look longer than that because there's a lot of variables that are going to affect your look back window. If you start going to 60 and 90 days, you're going to be getting into seasonality. You could have major conversion rate changes over that time frame. So we like to look at last 30. Last seven's almost too small because of your attribution window. That being said, if you lower your price or you have something crazy going on that changes your conversion rate, you probably need to look at a smaller look back window.

Destaney:

When it comes to how frequently do you optimize, there's a lot of different opinions in this space and I don't think it matters too much. If we're being honest, we optimize when we have enough data to optimize. So once I get a certain threshold of clicks, I typically start making bid optimization decisions based off that click threshold, which is something that you can build out again within Adtomic. So if you have $100 price point product, you're going to need more clicks to have enough data right, because customers like to think and click and take a longer time to purchase, so really depends.

Bradley Sutton:

Next question here. This is from Steven from YouTube. How long do you think you should run PPC at a loss to establish a product? It's not a repeatable purchase product.

Destaney:

That second part of that question is super valuable. If it's not a repeat purchase product, we typically run on a loss during the organic rank period, right. When we're trying to get up to closer to the top of the page. So that way, as we go higher up on the page, that means we don't have to rely on PPC as much to drive all of our views. So that is what we use as our lever of success. If we get into the top 40 for some of our top keywords, then maybe we're going to start focusing more on profitability. Again, it also depends on what your general margins are. If you have $50,000 set aside where you can focus on organic rank, then maybe it makes sense to start from the beginning at a loss. But if you don't have that money set aside cash flow is important then maybe you need to focus on layering in more profitability-focused keywords and bid optimization.

Bradley Sutton:

And Amazon Girl says do you have a strategy to increase brand share in Amazon using PPC and what do you recommend?

Destaney:

100%. So Pacvue actually released a study, I think, two years ago, that 70% of click share goes to the top placements on the page, which, as we know, are typically sponsored ads. So we've ran this for a lot of our original CPG brands. We'll create campaigns specifically focused on top of search for two to three of our top keywords that we want to increase brand share for. So we're creating campaigns that are solely focused on brand share. That's what the name is in the campaign title. We only focus on the exact match.

Destaney:

So we have really good control and we just bid really high. We bid high enough that we're winning as much impression share as possible. Now we may not be able to afford to win that impression share 100% of the time. It can be really expensive at top of search. But we have those campaigns set aside so we can increase and decrease our budget as needed. Then you can go into your search query performance report and say, hey, for this keyword that I'm focusing on brand share. What is my search query performance and am I actually increasing brand share in that scenario?

Bradley Sutton:

Yeah, I think search query performance is amazing, that Amazon has released that data first of all, and so powerful, I think, for sellers. But I think one popular strategy let me just get your viewpoint on this is like hey, let me see where my conversion rate for a keyword is better than the average since Amazon shows that. And then hey, if I'm not doubling down on or if I'm not showing up at the top of search, I need to go ahead and double down on that, increase my bid, whereas on the flip side, would your strategy be like? Maybe my overall conversion rate is not as good as my competitors, maybe I should even consider pulling back a spend. I know that's a kind of over-generalization, but is that kind of like your general strategy there?

Destaney:

100%, especially on the advertising side, like that's where a lot of people waste spend. They're saying you know, I'm selling a purple pin, this is a maroon pin, right, and maybe they bid on purple pin and their conversion rate is terrible and they're like let me keep spending on that turn, let me drive more people to there, because maybe they're going to start converting. They're not right, unless you adjust your listing to say, hey, this is purple and not maroon, and it'll hurt your organic rank if you drive a ton of traffic to terms that are converting really poorly because Amazon's saying, hey, customers are landing on this page but they're not buying. They don't need to be at the top of the page. I want to put products at the top of the page that are going to drive sales.

Bradley Sutton:

A YouTube question from Silver Arrow says how, on sponsored products, can we promote all variants to take up real estate to dominate the niche? Amazon only allows one variant to display. This might be promoting all colors on PPC, so yeah, in most categories.

Destaney:

Most, I was going to call that out.

Bradley Sutton:

You know, like you can only show up organically for one. You know, I've seen like energy drinks.

Destaney:

Yep.

Bradley Sutton:

You know like I've seen other categories too, or every single variant, but on PPC it's usually the same. For sponsored product, yep, but would I mean, I'm not saying I suggest this strategy, but theoretically, if somebody's really just concerned about real estate on page one and they are in a category where only one sponsored product or one organic can show up, would it be all right? Here's my organic rank and then maybe my sponsored product for that keyword is another variation, maybe my three. I put three sponsored brand headline, you know, ads for three different products, maybe a sponsored video for another one or something like that. I mean like other than that. Is there a way that you can force Amazon to get multiple things when it's not natural?

Destaney:

There's no way to really force it. Like you said, there's also a lot of inconsistency in Amazon testing how they're breaking out variations, so we've never found a great way to do it. Sponsored brand headline search ads the best way to show all of your variants. We do have a few brands that have actually split up, especially if it's like flavor variations chocolate protein versus vanilla protein. They've seen a lot of success splitting those up. That's not for everyone because now you're having to put PPC costs behind two different variations, right. It gets a lot more costly even though you are making up more market share. The only other small thing I would say is like from a cannibalization perspective, like you said, make sure you're running different ads at the top than what you're organically ranked for and make sure you're running brand defense ads on your product detail page.

Bradley Sutton:

Jalil says when using a single keyword campaign, do you use a top of search modifier, and what percentage do you find the best results with? I usually do 10% to 20% when using a top of search.

Destaney:

This one's a difficult, right, if you're coming from some of the other software companies in the space whose placement modifiers to optimize all of their bids. We don't recommend that strategy at BTR media because it gets really complex. If my only goal is to win top of search, I just bid really high and then also put a modifier on.

Bradley Sutton:

Thank you. Thank you. If somebody else says I like that, I always felt like it's not so popular to say that and I'm like man. Am I in the minority here? Like, why am I the only one still old school?

Destaney:

I will go a tiny bit deeper. The problem with modifiers and a lot of people haven't probably dove into the documentation on this is there's a little asterisk that says Amazon will only apply the modifier based off the likelihood of a sell. So a lot of people are assuming that every single time the click happens that modifier was applied, and that's not true. So it just, in my opinion, causes a lot of inconsistency. You want to win top of search? Go bid $50. Within five minutes you'll see you're at it, top of search, and then you'll see the CPC. It took you to get there.

Bradley Sutton:

What I tell people is, you know, maybe without Helium 10, I might do that. But the reason why I always stayed old school and just was controlling my bid was I don't need a top of search modifier. I'm not going to give Amazon the wheel in cases where I don't have to. You know like and just trust that Amazon's going to do exactly the right thing. I'm going to fully control the bid because I just put that keyword in Keyword Tracker, or actually in Adtomic, you can actually see the keyword ranks too, and within three hours I'm going to see three consecutive ranks where I can see oh, I obviously need to increase my bid, or, man, I'm already at the very top of search, you know, naturally, on sponsors, so maybe I can pull back and just see where it is. So it's like you don't have to guess where you're showing up because you just put in Keyword Tracker, put boost on, you'll know right away. It's refreshing to hear somebody else say the same thing here.

Bradley Sutton:

Another question from YouTube, Rebecca says is it still recommended to put the same keyword in all three match types? And also, does it hurt your organic rank to pause keywords that aren't relevant to your product but are not performing?

Destaney:

This is a great question. We run in all three match types for our brands because there's different purposes. Our exact match we know exactly where they're showing up on the page. We have a lot of control. Our phrase match opens up a little bit more opportunity for keyword research. So if I'm bidding on Chapstick, I'm going to start finding oh, people are typing in I don't know peppermint Chapstick or vanilla Chapstick, so it helps me expand that. Broad match does the same. It's a good keyword research methodology for us and if you have good bid management, it's going to allow you to harvest a lot of new keywords.

Destaney:

If I'm a really small brand and I don't have a big budget, I would probably only focus on exact match and phrase match internally. They do not compete. That's a misconception and I pulled our agency data yesterday on this. Exact match has driven $9 million in sales for us at a 15% conversion rate. Phrase match is also driven $8.9 million in sales at a 13.5% conversion rate and broad match was a little bit under that because we lower our bids on broad match conversion rate I think was the lowest at maybe 12%, but because we had good bid management. Our RoAS and ACoS was the same on almost all of them so they act in a different manner.

Destaney:

Right, it's still expanding. And then the other quick question is does it hurt your organic rank? Not necessarily, but you got to think it's slowing your sales volume down so it could in the long term hurt your organic rank. The better answer is just lower your bids. Right, if it's a great keyword with a great conversion rate you can't afford, maybe top of search, lower your bid to make that term profitable, even if sales slow down.

Bradley Sutton:

A lot of great questions say this is pretty cool.

Destaney:

Good questions.

Bradley Sutton:

Gregori says my ad sales are driven by 60 to 70% by a sponsor brand video. Because of that, I'm not well ranked on my main keywords our sponsor brand ads. I'm assuming he's talking about both sponsor brand and sponsor brand video. Are these helping with ranking at all? So I think what he's talking about is like maybe he's got a video and it's showing up on the Coffin Shelf page or a Coffin Shelf search results. Somebody typed in Coffin Shelf now if it was just regular sponsored product ad, that's definitely going to help the algorithm. But if somebody clicks the sponsored brand video ad from that same search. Me personally, when I tested this maybe one year, two years ago, it didn't have as much impact, if anything at all. What are you seeing lately?

Destaney:

Pretty much the same. So sponsor brands video has almost no impact from what we've seen, other than the fact that again, you're still driving sales. So there's a small factor there. But let's talk about why, really fast, sponsored products make up 70% of your sales, when ran appropriately, because they have more real estate on the page than anything else. Sponsored brands video have two placements on the search results and one on the product detail page so their real estate is so much less that they don't really drive enough overall volume to make a difference. And then when they do drive sales, it's being distributed across multiple ASINs typically. So if you just look at like the math, they drive a lot less sales to specific keywords and that's why and then sponsor brands video again is considering all of your brand halo, not necessarily correlating a keyword to a product from an organic rank perspective.

Bradley Sutton:

All right. Rebecca said hey, do you think there will be a chance to create bid rules where we can lower the bids on certain days and times? You can do that in Adtomic, so make sure to do that. We call that schedules. A lot of people just call that day parting. But Amazon, I mean, do you think Amazon will allow or will have that in seller central?

Destaney:

I do. I think it's on the roadmap. Actually, one thing I'll throw out there is I don't recommend using Advertising Console for this. So put this in the shortest way possible. Amazon has an API called Amazon Marketing Stream that actually shows you hourly insights on spend and sales. Adtomic uses that all the software providers use it. From an API perspective, Advertising Console does not give you that access into the insights. So within ad console, you cannot see when someone clicked on an ad at 3pm on Tuesday but purchased on Wednesday at 9am. Adtomic’s giving you that so you can actually day part appropriately. Advertising Consoles not. That being said, what you can do in this scenario lower your bids to the level that you need 100% of the time and then increase your bid when you're performing best right. So just inverse what a typical day parting is. Lower the hours that you think you're performing poorly, increase when you do incredibly well and just run the inverse of day parting.

Bradley Sutton:

My buddy DotadaSilva says he's got a two part question here. So what's your suggestion on a bunch of my unprofitable long tail search term reports? If he combines it all he sees $9,000 in spend with zero sales, but they have less than 15 clicks. So maybe he's got some rule that says, hey, if I find a search term that has 25 clicks, let's go ahead and negative, but this doesn't qualify as that. He says all are very relevant keywords impression is good. So what should I do? Should I lower the bid or should I negate them, or should I put them in a separate campaign?

Destaney:

If your brand is only focused on profitability, I would just pause them. I would not negate. I don't think so. And this is again. This is a difficult situation to pin on the brand. My personal opinion is 10 to 15 clicks is not enough clicks to actually make a decision. What I would do is I would lower your bid on all of those data collection long tail keywords so that way, even if you have 200 of them each getting 10 clicks each, you're not spending enough money to really make a big enough difference. You're slowly collecting data until you figure out whether or not that keyword converts at a $1 bid. It's going to be really costly to collect that data across 200 keywords and 15 clicks, right? I don't really know if it'd be valuable putting them in a separate campaign. I would just lower bid.

Bradley Sutton:

Do you skip the last two days of the look back window?

Destaney:

Yeah. That's traditionally recommended 100%. If something crazy happens then no, it's not necessary. You could still look. But fun fact, I believe the window Amazon last presented between the time that someone searches for a product and makes a purchase is over five days, right, which is crazy. So if you run an ad and you see your spending driving law spend on Monday, there's a good chance that person's not checking out until Friday, which is my whole day parting soapbox. But we don't need to get into that.

Bradley Sutton:

Yeah. It's kind of, you know, like it's funny, because this is why, as Amazon sellers and this is a completely generalized statement, but we as Amazon sellers should not be looking at our strategy based on what we do as consumers, because me personally, if I click on something, I'm buying it. And then what opened up a whole world to me was when search crew performance ran. I was like, why are these numbers so low? And then, yeah, I talked to Amazon about they're like no, this is only looking at those who take action in a 24-hour window after a click. I'm like and like who doesn't buy something when they add it to the cart? And then I, all of a sudden, I started asking people and I was the weird one. You know, people are like.

Destaney:

Yeah, yeah, like.

Bradley Sutton:

I had a whole bunch of stuff to my cart and I think about it for a couple days and then I'm like what? So? So like again. This is not necessarily just PPC, but if you guys are running your businesses based on your own consumer behavior, guys, that's not the majority out there. You got it. You got to have strategy that applies to more people.

Destaney:

Yep.

Bradley Sutton:

Get the next question we got or do our first one from LinkedIn, from Tobias. What is your approach about auto campaigns? Do you just use them for keyword harvesting, or is there something more about it?

Destaney:

Auto campaigns do win unique inventory, like in stop, so they actually influence the frequently bought together section. Occasionally, you'll see a sponsored ad there. Sometimes you'll see a sponsored ads and like the lightning deal section. So that's a good reason to continue to run auto campaign. So we do continue to run them for almost all of our products. We also aggressively keyword harvest. Like all of our systems are built out for quick keyword harvesting, so we run them in segmented close match, loose match, compliments, substitutes in order to go ahead and make sure we're consistently getting great keyword research. We don't really recommend running your auto campaigns with more than 10% of your spend historically because you don't have a lot of control. But we do continue to run them because of the unique inventory.

Bradley Sutton:

Any circumstances for which you would recreate a new exact match campaign, or why a key phrase would do well under broad match but not exact. So I'm not sure this is what she's asking. But, like you know, sometimes I've heard people say, hey, I've got a good keyword. It's in my, my exact manual campaign. It just gets like very low Impressions. But then I put it in a new one and all of a sudden it gets impressions which doesn't, you know, make sense. But is that just what we should do? If we don't see it have good impressions, just try it again in a new one.

Destaney:

Yeah. It's definitely worth testing. I think you know let's talk about Chevalier's. Second point here is sometimes when you harvest a keyword from your auto campaigns or broad match and you put it into exact match, it doesn't perform as well, or the reverse. The reason being is your campaigns and your keywords attract or collect relevancy, right, Amazon's an algorithm, so they like to make database decisions. So maybe you have the keyword Chapstick in an auto campaign.

Destaney:

That's always done amazingly well for you, and the reason it did well is because it was a 17-cent bid on page 5. And then you go ahead and you pull it out and you decide to try to put it in a manual campaign at a $2 bid and all of a sudden it does terrible, and that's because it's showing up a different placement on the page. You put it into a new campaign and now you're showing up at the top of page one and all of your competitors have 50,000 reviews. So your conversion rate looks worse, right? So all of that to say test like we definitely move our keywords around and harvest a hundred percent. We also will create exact match campaigns for different purposes. We have ranking campaigns then we have profitability campaigns. They're both bidding on exact match. One of them is just focused on ranked ones, on profitability, so we do recommend that.

Bradley Sutton:

Okay then just one other tip out there for people who maybe it's on a brand new product and, no matter what you do, you can't get many impressions when you know that there's search volume for this. It could be a relevancy issue where Amazon just doesn't think that your product is what it is and the way you can kind of have visibility and not using Helium 10. Guys, put the product in Cerebro and then look at the column that I would say 99% of Cerebro users don't look at, but in my opinion it might be one of the top three things in the entirety of Helium 10 is look at the Amazon recommended rank for it. This is a live pool directly from this one thing that, for whatever reason, Helium 10 is the only one that's been showing this for like years, but it's what Amazon thinks the product is.

Bradley Sutton:

So if you see Amazon recommended rank one through 20 and it's a bunch of keywords that aren't really what your product is, it means Amazon is confused. And if that keyword is like at number 300 or maybe not even on the list, then yeah, you're not gonna get impressions for it because that's literally how Amazon decides what it's going to show you for. So that's just another way you can get some visibility at least into that. Steven says how do you, oh, it's a good one, how do you approach keywords that used to convert very well but they've fallen off for a month or more?

Destaney:

I want. I'd be very curious if conversion rate is the metric Steven's actually calling out here, or if he's looking at it for, or if he's saying ACoS used to be better and now it's not. If your conversion rate has changed, the biggest thing I'll take a look at is did your listing change? Did you have a drop in review count to review quality? Did you make a change to your images? Why? Like?

Destaney:

The real question you're asking, Steven, is why did customers stop buying my product after landing on my page, which isn't necessarily a PPC issue, right, that's a listing issue. Now there is a small portion of this which could be a PPC issue, and that's maybe. You used to show up at the top of the page and now you're showing up at the bottom of the page and your conversion has changed slightly because share of shelf is different. You're now being compared to different products depending on where your ads are, but more than likely, if it's a conversion issue, that is a listing issue. It's rarely a PPC issue. When you talk about conversion, if it was an ACoS or a RoAS issue, then more than likely your bid management changed or your conversion rate changed.

Bradley Sutton:

Jillil says, when dealing with supplements that are in a, that are a complex and not just a singular ingredient, how would you do your keyword research and PPC strategy? For example, a joint support supplement with five ingredients versus something like vitamin C, which is a singular ingredient? Destaney, what is up with these good questions?

Destaney:

I know it's a great. . .

Bradley Sutton:

I don't know like you just attract, I gotta have you on all the time you can track some of the best stuff.

Destaney:

This is a great question. I'm very familiar with this category and the core answer is Stop getting caught up in just the keyword research, right? This is one of those things where, to Bradley's point earlier, stop thinking as a seller and start thinking as a customer. No one is typically tight. Well, that's a lie. Most people are typing in joint supplements. Most people are typing in vitamin C supplement, right? So target those.

Destaney:

The problem is knowing that category. Your CPCs for both of those are typically around $20. I've worked in them very familiar. You can't afford those usually. So you do start layering in more ingredients because if a customer types in vitamin C, they don't know what they want. Right, they want some type of vitamin C. But if they type in vitamin C deficiency for so and so and so it's going to be a lot lower search volume, but they're going to convert much higher because they've done their research and they know your product is what they're looking for. So just create campaigns for both. Create campaigns for your top singular keywords that you probably can't afford but you're going to give a low budget to anyways, and then create campaigns based off the ingredients. Maybe it's one ingredient, maybe it's probiotics with fiber, I don't know I'm totally making that up and then create another campaign for probiotics with vitamins or collagen and then figure out what's performing best and scale what's best and pull back on what's not.

Bradley Sutton:

Toseef says I'm getting good sales of the good ACoS on a keyword. Should I always keep on increasing the bit of that keyword or not?

Destaney:

It depends, really. You know you're looking at this on a micro level. If your overall account is within your ACoS, then maybe just keep it. If you have a little bit room to grow, then raise your bid and drive more sales.

Bradley Sutton:

But looking at the keyword rank also is good too. If you're already at the top of the page, you know there's no sense to necessarily, you know, increase your rank because then maybe somebody else is just going to do the same thing and now you're everybody's just driving the cost up needlessly. Brent says I've got multiple products that I'm targeting the same search terms. If I have multiple campaigns for multiple products bidding on the same search terms, am I artificially driving up the bids?

Destaney:

No, the only time you have to worry about this is if you're running out of separate seller central accounts and then competing.

Bradley Sutton:

Were you surprised when the keyword report added for ASIN targeting? What's your approach about ASIN targeting and how much sales do you need for extra campaigns for specific ASINs to push them separately?

Destaney:

Not surprised. This has actually been a thing for quite some time and pretty much it's saying, hey, I'm targeting this product, but this product also indexes for these top five keywords, so let me show up there. In general, you got to consider, Amazon is moving into a more AI model. It's going to be a lot less paper click and a lot more shopper intent. That's included. I, theoretically, have seen sponsored products also run retargeting. So when things are out of my control, I try not to worry about it and what I do instead is be more concise with my campaign structure so that way I can break out my reporting.

Bradley Sutton:

Matt says I've got a variation listing. I got a 10 pack and a 20 pack. Should I drive people traffic to the cheaper option which tends to sell better?

Destaney:

Yeah, I would. So you got to think about it from a PPC goal. The only thing you want is to bring people into your listing. The lower price point is going to bring them into your listing. That doesn't mean they're not going to buy the 20 pack. We almost always recommend running on the lower price point even though your margins are going to look a little bit worse or your performance is going to look a little bit worse RoAS wise. You're going to bring them into the listing and then they're still going to buy the more expensive if they want it.

Bradley Sutton:

Tracy says how many keywords per campaign or ad group and what's a good way to structure.

Destaney:

So one thing I'm going to run through really quickly is we personally run one campaign, one ad group. We run multiple ad groups because your budget is on the campaign level. Amazon makes you set a hundred dollar budget, whatever that number is, and then, if you have multiple ad groups, you can't control if this ad group is getting $50 or $20 or $30. So I run one campaign, one ad group and then we typically put 10 to 15 keywords. There's no perfect answer. There's a lot of myths in the space. The end of the day, it's however much budget you have. I have brands that have millions of dollars of budget so I can set 200 keywords in a campaign because I know I have enough budget to collect data on all those keywords. For most people, we recommend anywhere from one keyword for your top driving to 20 keywords and not going over that.

Bradley Sutton:

Just a quick one before I forget. This is one of my questions. Obviously, one of the rules that we can do for keyword harvesting in Adtomic is like say hey, this is, if I find a keyword in an auto or broad or phrase campaign at this threshold, I want you, as an Adtomic to move this to my exact manual campaign. What is? Obviously there's different strokes for different folks, but is it two purchases? Is it three purchases? Is it two purchases or three purchases, or four purchases plus a certain ACoS? What is a decent rule of thumb?

Destaney:

When I originally started, so I'm going to throw that out there from simplicity's sake. I think I did two sales under like a 100% ACoS. The reason I kept my ACoS high is because I knew when I harvested that keyword I could just lower my bid at the end of the day. What really matters is that it's driving sales. Conversion rates another important one to layer in is like your average conversion rate. As long as it's higher than that, you're fine.

Bradley Sutton:

Sandy says we're thinking of lowering retail to. I'm assuming he means maybe the retail price to improve conversion rate. Have you seen a better conversion rate when using a lower everyday low price or a coupon?

Destaney:

It depends on your competitors. Of course, a lower price is probably going to improve your conversion rate. At the end of the day, would you be better off optimizing your listing better and maintaining a high price? Would you be better off adding more value to your product? Those are things you can consider, because the problem with lowering your price is you get into a race of chasing the bottom. All of your competitors can also lower their price. The real value add is improving your product.

Bradley Sutton:

What's been working for BTR media and your clients as far as custom images in sponsored brand campaigns and types of sponsored brand video campaigns because I feel like this changes year over year what performs best.

Destaney:

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is obviously CPCs have gotten a lot more competitive with video and creative, as people are doing it more and more.

Destaney:

So, yeah, I think that's it, thank you. I have gotten into arguments about the generative AI sponsor brands and a lot of people are like, yeah, and you know it's not working, it's terrible, but we've seen amazing performance. We've actually split test against commercial grade creatives that, like, professional brands have used, and generative AI is in line with it. Of course, it's up to your prompt, but don't over complicate it. When customers are on Amazon, they're not looking to click on commercials, they're looking to click on something that looks native to the platform, which is where I think AI does a decent job of simplicity. So, you know, for Christmas last year, we took a brand that has like 2000 ASINs and we used AI to make every single ASIN like Christmas. We just added a little Christmas tree and it did incredibly, incredibly well because people knew it was a seasonal item.

Bradley Sutton:

All right. Last question of the day, it's from a brand new person to the Amazon. I'm sure there's a lot of brand new people out there. Maybe they were too shy to ask a question, but real simple. Hey, Ashlyn says I'm a first time seller. Just give me some tips about what I should be thinking about when starting with PPC.

Destaney:

I think the first and foremost is obviously going through all of the resources available for Helium 10. I don't know if people actually deep dive on everything that's available, even if it's as simple as going through like the Adtomic training. I know Travis. I watched a few videos where he was like training on concepts, not just the software itself. Amazon advertising also has an amazing accreditation program I have to shout out. We send, we've hired interns out of high school, sent them through the accreditation program and they've been managing accounts after like three months. Obviously, we also do a lot of training on top of that but Amazon's invested a ton in their accreditation program. So when you log into Amazon advertising, you can see their learning console. Highly recommended. Every brand owner, every team needs to get certified in Amazon advertising accreditation.

Bradley Sutton:

Last thing of the day is just a hey, what's your 30 or 60 second tip, PPC related that you can share with the audience. Could be about anything you want.

Destaney:

Everybody needs to better understand the correlation between your bid and CPC and your CPC and ACoS and RoAS. That is like one of the most important things as a brand owner to understand if my increase, my bid, what happens? Right, our bid is the number one we can control. To Bradley's point, you have accessibility with the Adtomic. Dive into those resources and start understanding bid management. If you don't learn anything else, learn bid management within your tools and your brand.

Bradley Sutton:

Well, Destaney, thank you so much for joining us again. We're definitely going to be seeing a lot of videos that have training that we've been filming, that you're going to help users out there, you know, expand their knowledge in PPC. And if I saw some questions in chat asking about Adtomic, so if again the website to get a free demo, h10.me/adtomic, and then how can people find you on the interwebs out there If they'd like to reach out directly to you?

Destaney:

Can I answer a bonus question, just because it came up. Okay, so I'm going to talk about suggested bids because I see it nonstop in the Helium 10 groups and it just came up here. When Amazon's giving you a suggested bid, they're taking the average of what every single competitor's bidding and the placements on the page top of search could be $30, bottom of search could be $2. So their suggested bids are an average of all of those placements. So, yes, you can bid a lot lower and still win impressions, because you're probably showing up on page two or page three or the PDP, and you may not. You may bid the suggested bid and still not show up on page one. You may have to bid 20 times higher because you have one person increasing the auction, which doesn't influence the average. So keep that in mind. If you want to learn more, find more, I post a ton of content in the groups, on Facebook, on LinkedIn. I think is where we post the majority of our content and you know, check us out btrmedia.com.

Bradley Sutton:

All right. Thank you so much, Destaney, for joining us, and we'll see you in a little bit.