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NEW 2025 Interview: Genocidology (CRIMES OF ATROCITY) Part 2 with Dirk Moses

Nov 27, 2025

Guest

Dirk Moses

Dr. Dirk Moses, a leading scholar in genocide studies and author of "The Problems of Genocide," returns to discuss evolving sentiments about atrocity crimes. He examines the implications of recent military actions in Gaza and distinguishes between genocide and other war crimes. The conversation dives into the role of international politics, the impact of social media on public perception, and the criminalization of protests. Moses emphasizes the importance of accurate labeling in human rights discourse and reflects on the need for activism amidst complex realities.

01:11:40

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insights

INSIGHT

Legal Definition Creates Proof Problem

Genocide legally requires intent to destroy a protected group as such, which makes proving it uniquely difficult.
Dirk Moses argues this narrow legal threshold obscures large-scale campaigns that functionally target societies as a whole.

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INSIGHT

Holocaust Comparison Skews Judgments

The Holocaust-shaped sense of genocide makes other mass atrocities harder to classify legally.
That comparison bias produces a hierarchy where some mass killings are labeled 'war' not genocide, despite similar societal destruction.

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INSIGHT

Scale Of Bombing Suggests Societal Targeting

Large-scale, repeated use of disproportionate munitions against populated areas can functionally target an entire society.
Moses questions whether recurring mass destruction can be plausibly framed as mere 'collateral damage.'

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Update on Gaza, UN reports, and recent scholarship

01:56 • 4min

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When does a campaign become genocidal?

05:56 • 3min

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Genocide, war crimes, and legal definitions

08:34 • 2min

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Self-defense, occupation, and historic context

10:49 • 2min

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Intent versus military logic in mass destruction

12:34 • 4min

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Genocide's conceptual drift since Lemkin

16:54 • 3min

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Scale of bombing, weapons, and identification systems

20:15 • 1min

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Bunker-busters, disproportionate strikes, and intent

21:30 • 2min

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Is the world unusually complicit?

23:19 • 42sec

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Power, geopolitics, and failed prevention

24:01 • 2min

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R2P, hypocrisy, and the UN's weakness

25:46 • 2min

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US vetoes and complicity concerns

27:44 • 2min

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Historical denials and admissions of genocide

29:52 • 2min

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Social media, live witness accounts, and AI misinformation

32:21 • 2min

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Young activists, vicarious trauma, and protest backlash

34:44 • 2min

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Criminalizing protest and free speech worries

36:43 • 4min

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Historical parallels in media coverage

40:19 • 3min

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Comparing genocides and slippery analogies

ICJ, thresholds, and reform debates

49:26 • 6min

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Limits of law and the politics of validation

55:04 • 5min

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Possible outcomes and ceasefire realities

59:59 • 7min

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Permanent security logic and colonial continuities

01:07:17 • 5min

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Why labels matter and academic caution

01:12:25 • 3min

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Closing reflections and encouragement to act

The Problems of Genocide

Permanent and the language of transgression

Gert Moses

#38843

Axis rule in occupied Europe

Raphael Lemkin

Raphael Lemkin's "Axis Rule in Occupied Europe" is a seminal work that documented the atrocities committed by the Axis powers during World War II. The book meticulously details the systematic persecution and extermination of various groups, providing a comprehensive account of the horrors inflicted upon civilians. A key contribution of the book is Lemkin's introduction of the term "genocide", which he defined as acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. The book served as a crucial foundation for the development of international law concerning genocide and influenced the creation of the Genocide Convention. Its detailed analysis of the systematic nature of these crimes remains highly relevant in understanding and preventing future atrocities.

What Is Genocide?

Martin Shaw

Gareth Schott

This book provides a historical examination of genocide across different international contexts, spanning from colonization and European genocide through the Cold War, decolonization, post-colonial genocide, and contemporary genocidal violence. The second edition (2015) is a fully revised and updated version of Shaw's 2007 classic, featuring a new chapter on Raphael Lemkin and an extended critique of his approach in light of recent research, along with improved presentation suitable for teaching.

• Mentioned in 413 episodes

The Lord of the Rings

J.R.R Tolkien

The Lord of the Rings, written by J.R. R. Tolkien, is an epic high fantasy novel set in Middle-earth. The story follows Frodo Baggins, a hobbit who inherits the One Ring from his uncle Bilbo. The Ring, forged by Sauron, holds the power to control all other Rings of Power and must be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom to prevent Sauron's return. Frodo is joined by a fellowship of other characters, including Gandalf the Grey, Samwise Gamgee, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and Boromir, as they embark on a dangerous quest across Middle-earth. The novel explores themes of good vs. evil, the corrupting influence of power, and the struggle between fate and free will.

#138

• Mentioned in 117 episodes

The Hobbit

or There and Back Again

J.R.R Tolkien

Published in 1937, 'The Hobbit' is a children's fantasy novel that introduces readers to the richly imagined world of Middle-earth. The story follows Bilbo Baggins, a home-loving hobbit, who is persuaded by Gandalf to join Thorin and his twelve dwarves on a quest to reclaim their treasure from the dragon Smaug. During the journey, Bilbo encounters various creatures, including trolls, goblins, and the mysterious Gollum, and discovers a magical ring that renders the wearer invisible. The novel is a prequel to 'The Lord of the Rings' and explores themes of personal growth, courage, and unexpected heroism.

Note: if you haven’t already heard it, please start with our original, May 2024 episode with Dr. Moses:

Genocidology (CRIMES OF ATROCITY) Part 1

A lot has happened since then, and author, scholar and genocide expert Dr. Dirk Moses was kind enough to return for a 2025 episode. We cover how public and legal sentiment has changed since our first episode, and discuss his recent paper, “Introduction: Gaza and the Problems of Genocide Studies,” which includes a roundtable discussion with dozens of experts. Also: some behind-the-scenes influences regarding Gaza in the media, humanitarian law precedents, munitions and the Geneva Conventions, myths, the problems surrounding the language of transgression, new research, up-to-date statistics, and how protests have been criminalized.

Like that first Genocide episode, this one would not be possible without the input, research, producing, and additional writing of Mercedes Maitland, who joined me on this interview once again with her questions for our expert. So, huge thanks to her for that passion, hard work, and tireless advocacy for human rights.

Donations went to Gaza Hand of Salvation Initiative and the City College of New York Colin Powell School – Student Emergency Fund

Visit Dr. Dirk Moses’s website

Read his book, “The Problems of Genocide: Permanent Security and the Language of Transgression”