Terrence Deacon & Michael Levin: What is Life? Complexity, Cognition & the Origin of Purpose
May 9, 2025
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Terrence Deacon, a leading figure in evolutionary biology from UC Berkeley, and Michael Levin, a pioneering developmental biologist from Tufts, team up for an enlightening conversation. They explore the origin of life through complex systems, discussing thermodynamics, memory, and the interplay of metabolism and cognition. Insights into the 'lazy gene hypothesis' and the concept of inverse Darwinism spark intriguing thoughts on evolution. The duo also delves into bioelectric patterns in xenobots and the philosophical nuances of purpose, making for a thought-provoking exchange.
The integration of philosophy with biology, as discussed by Deacon and Levin, is essential for advancing our understanding of life processes.
The emergence of purpose in biological systems can arise organically without predefined goals, emphasizing a thermodynamic perspective on living organisms.
Constraints play a crucial role in shaping biological outcomes, as they enable organisms to utilize their environment for problem-solving and navigation.
Deep dives
Influences and Interests in Developmental Biology
The conversation highlights the profound impacts of both speakers on developmental evolutionary biology and cognitive science. They express a shared admiration for Terence Deacon's work, particularly his exploration of neural transplants and concepts such as semiosis and the critique of Cartesian dichotomies. Deacon's emphasis on the integration of philosophy with biology and developmental neuroscience resonates deeply with Michael Levin, who discusses the importance of understanding the underlying commonalities within biological systems. This fusion of diverse scientific domains is viewed as essential for advancing knowledge and facilitating new breakthroughs in understanding life processes.
The Role of Philosophy in Science
The podcast delves into the significance of philosophy in scientific inquiry, with a particular focus on the influence of Dan Dennett. Levin describes Dennett's perspective that science is inherently intertwined with philosophical assumptions, emphasizing the importance of rigorous philosophy and empirical data in shaping scientific thought. The conversation acknowledges the tension between philosophical theory and experimental data, arguing for the necessity of incorporating philosophical insights into biological research for a more holistic understanding. By recognizing the philosophical aspects of scientific exploration, researchers can redefine their approach to complex biological phenomena.
Understanding Purpose in Biological Systems
The episode explores the concept of purpose and how physical systems exhibit purpose-like behavior, starting from simple organisms to more complex entities. Deacon approaches the assessment of purpose through a thermodynamic lens, questioning the typical lists of life-defining properties and suggesting a focus on the unusual thermodynamics of living systems. The discussion reveals that the generation and memory of forms within organisms—including the development of brains—recall a distinction between emergence and purpose. By examining the processes of generation and memory, the speakers suggest that purpose can emerge organically without needing a pre-defined goal.
The Interplay of Constraints and Causality
The podcast draws attention to the role of constraints in shaping biological outcomes, positing that constraints can sometimes have a more substantial impact than initial conditions. Levin discusses the concept of 'offloading computation' onto the environment, where biological systems take advantage of environmental constraints to solve complex problems. This viewpoint broadens the understanding of how living organisms navigate their surroundings and interact with their environment, giving rise to varied solutions to challenges such as resource acquisition and structural development. The discussion around constraints extends to holistic process navigation and proposes a reconsideration of how biologists understand causality in living systems.
Memory and Regeneration in Planaria
The episode examines how planaria retain memories during regeneration, inspiring curiosity about the nature of memory in living beings. Deacon emphasizes that the information in an organism, such as DNA, serves as a compressed representation that requires a complex decompression process for the regrowth of structures. The conversation highlights that the ability of organisms to regenerate parts while retaining memories reflects an underlying design of self-organization within biological systems. This raises questions about the nature of memory storage in living organisms and the role of biological substrates in facilitating memory and identity during regeneration.
Teleology and Teleonomy in Biological Systems
The podcast addresses the concepts of teleology and teleonomy, discussing their implications in understanding biology and cognition. Levin argues for a robust interpretation of teleology, emphasizing that some systems possess intrinsic goals and perspectives that cannot be ignored. Deacon raises concerns about remaining within the observer's perspective when discussing these concepts, urging a deeper exploration of how teleology emerges within biological processes. This discussion illustrates the complexity of defining purpose in living systems and invites further examination of how organisms fabricate their own ends and meanings in a dynamic and evolving context.
Professor Terrence Deacon & Professor Michael Levin have both shaped the fields of developmental evolutionary biology, cognitive science, and so much more. In this episode of Mind-Body Solution, these distinguished giants come together in conversation for the very first time: "A Biology Revolution". Terrence Deacon is Professor and Chair of the Department of Anthropology and member of the Helen Wills Neuroscience Institute at the University of California, Berkeley.Michael Levin is Professor in the Biology department at Tufts University and associate faculty at the Wyss Institute for Bioinspired Engineering at Harvard University. TIMESTAMPS:(0:00) - Introduction(0:42) - Mike on Terry's work(1:32) - Terry on Mike's work (2:48) - Mike & Terry on Daniel Dennett's work(8:10) - Origin of Life & Purpose (Terry's perspective: complexity, thermodynamics, memory)(14:37) - Origin of Life & Purpose (Mike's perspective: models of scaling, polycomputing, spaces of reality)(20:08) - The Self, Beneficiaries & Causal Emergence(26:00) - Strange Loops & Semiotics (Metabolism precedes Neural activity)(29:00) - Causality: Constraints, Morphological Computing & Environmental Offloading (32:50) - Lazy Gene Hypothesis, Inverse Darwinism, Constraints & Energy(40:15) - Regeneration & Memory: Decompression Processes & Complexity(45:30) - Meta-Constraints: Problem Solving Agents & Bioengineering Surprises (beyond genes)(52:57) - Hypothesis Generation & Adaptive Nervous Systems (Competitions between Interpretations)(57:48) - Biologizing Cognition: Evolutionary & Developmental(1:02:40) - Terry's Critique of Mike's work (Preformationism)(1:06:00) - Mike's Response(1:15:22) - Mike's Critique of Terry's work (Teleonomy)(1:18:03) - Terry's Response(1:23:50) - Goal Directedness(1:26:22) - Final Thoughts(1:28:55) - Conclusion EPISODE LINKS:- Mike's Podcast 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6gp-ORTBlU- Mike's Podcast 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMxTS7eKkNM- Mike's Podcast 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R-tdscgxu4- Mike's Lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQEX-twenkA- Terry's Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Kj2OgkxGa0- Terry's Lecture: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=refDeUzgdIg- Daniel Dennett Tribute: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3cWQLUbnKsCONNECT:- Website: https://tevinnaidu.com - Podcast: https://creators.spotify.com/pod/show/mindbodysolution- YouTube: https://youtube.com/mindbodysolution- Twitter: https://twitter.com/drtevinnaidu- Facebook: https://facebook.com/drtevinnaidu - Instagram: https://instagram.com/drtevinnaidu- LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/drtevinnaidu=============================Disclaimer: The information provided on this channel is for educational purposes only. The content is shared in the spirit of open discourse and does not constitute, nor does it substitute, professional or medical advice. We do not accept any liability for any loss or damage incurred from you acting or not acting as a result of listening/watching any of our contents. You acknowledge that you use the information provided at your own risk. Listeners/viewers are advised to conduct their own research and consult with their own experts in the respective fields.
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