The MMT Podcast with Patricia Pino & Christian Reilly #202 Zackonomics and the budget with Phil Armstrong (part 1)
In this engaging discussion, economist Phil Armstrong shares his insights on the upcoming UK budget and the Green Party's embrace of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). He critiques conventional narratives surrounding budget constraints and emphasizes that a currency issuer can address public needs without creating false dilemmas. Armstrong advocates for a Job Guarantee, positing it as a vital stabilizer and ethical obligation. He contrasts it with Universal Basic Income, highlighting the community-building aspects of job creation. An enlightening dive into MMT principles and social responsibility awaits!
54:45
Fiscal Rules Create Self‑Inflicted Constraints
- Fiscal
Inflation Is About Real Resources
- Inflation reflects real resource constraints, not deficit size.
- Target spending to spare resources and use taxes to free up scarce inputs.
Use A Job Guarantee As An Automatic Stabiliser
- Use a job guarantee as an automatic stabiliser to anchor wages and demand.
- Design it to provide employed buffer stock labour that prevents unemployment‑driven inflation.
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Intro
00:00 • 3min
Budget black hole rhetoric and fiscal rules
02:39 • 4min
Currency issuer, real resources and false trade-offs
06:13 • 2min
Inflation risks from bidding on scarce resources
08:10 • 40sec
Targeting deficits and resource-aware policy
08:50 • 2min
Three-pronged inflation management and Job Guarantee
10:57 • 2min
Zack Polanski, MMT and full employment
13:24 • 2min
MMT ontology and the state's sequence
15:20 • 3min
Job Guarantee as logical extension of MMT
18:50 • 2min
Defending the Job Guarantee's centrality
21:10 • 2min
Practical design: locally administered, centrally funded
23:32 • 3min
Ad break
26:52 • 1min
Ethics and macro benefits of the Job Guarantee
28:20 • 1min
Responding to 'authoritarian' Job Guarantee concerns
29:48 • 3min
Examples of Job Guarantee tasks and flexibility
33:12 • 3min
Stephanie Kelton's Job Guarantee explanation
36:10 • 2min
Political implications and democratic accountability
38:16 • 3min
Balancing collective needs with individual freedom
41:05 • 2min
Taxation, coercion, and the alternative authoritarianism
43:22 • 2min
Job Guarantee versus UBI: social structures matter
45:10 • 3min
UBI's limits and preserving work's social value
48:30 • 5min
Outro
53:24 • 1min
#17936
• Mentioned in 2 episodes
Modern Money Theory
L. Randall Wray
#1757
• Mentioned in 20 episodes
The Deficit Myth
Modern Monetary Theory and the Birth of the People's Economy
Stephanie Kelton
In this book, Stephanie Kelton challenges conventional economic wisdom by arguing that government deficits are not inherently bad and can actually strengthen economies.
She dispels six key myths about deficits, such as the idea that governments should budget like households, that deficits harm future generations, crowd out private investment, and undermine long-term growth.
Kelton explains that in a fiat currency system, governments are not constrained by the same budgetary rules as households or businesses.
Instead, the real constraints are the limits of real resources and the threat of inflation.
The book advocates for using MMT to address critical social issues like poverty, inequality, unemployment, healthcare, and climate change by shifting the focus from narrow budgetary questions to broader economic and social benefits.
(Part 1) Patricia and Christian talk to Dr Phil Armstrong about the upcoming UK budget, and Green Party leader Zack Polanski's positive views of MMT.
Full conversation here: https://www.patreon.com/posts/142975558
Please help sustain this podcast!
Patrons get early access to all episodes and patron-only episodes: https://www.patreon.com/MMTpodcast
All our episodes in chronological order: https://www.patreon.com/posts/43111643
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LIVE EVENT!
Scotland's Festival of Economics (Edinburgh and online)
19th - 21st March 2026: https://www.scoteconfest.org/#learnmore
JOIN PATRICIA'S MMT ACTIVIST NETWORK (MMT UK): https://actionnetwork.org/forms/activist-registration-form
JOIN THE MMT UK DISCORD SERVER TO CONNECT WITH OTHERS LOOKING TO PROMOTE MMT AND ECOLOGICAL ECONOMICS IN THE UK!: https://discord.gg/S3UbxFe4FR
MMT: THE MOVIE!
- "Finding The Money", a documentary by Maren Poitras featuring Stephanie Kelton is now available worldwide to rent or buy: https://findingthemoney.vhx.tv/products/finding-the-money
- Updates on worldwide screenings of "Finding The Money" can be found here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/where-to-watch/
- To arrange a screening of "Finding The Money", apply here: https://findingmoneyfilm.com/host-a-screening/
STUDY THE ECONOMICS OF SUSTAINABILITY!
- Details of Modern Money Lab's online graduate, postgraduate and standalone courses in economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/
Relevant to this episode:
- "Universal Basic Income or a Job Guarantee?" The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies: https://gimms.org.uk/fact-sheets/universal-basic-income/
- "Comparing Post-Keynesianism and Modern Monetary Theory: The Importance of Ontology and Sociology" (2025) By Neil Wilson and Phil Armstrong: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=5337254
- "Should we favour a Job Guarantee over a Universal Basic Income as a means of achieving a more socially just society?" by Catherine Armstrong: https://gimms.org.uk/2023/07/08/should-we-favour-a-job-guarantee-over-a-universal-basic-income-as-a-means-of-achieving-a-more-socially-just-society/
- For more on the endogenous money view (the non-fringe, very mainstream view that bank loans create deposits, not the other way around), listen to episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318 and episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683
- Order the Gower Initiative's "Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers": https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/modern-monetary-theory-9781802208085.html
- For more on the (Liz) Trussageddon, listen to Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
- "How to Fight Back Against the False Idea that the Government is at the Mercy of Financial Markets" by Sheridan Kates: https://thealternative.org.uk/dailyalternative/2025/3/10/scotonomics-monetary-autonomy
- "There is no need to issue public debt" by Bill Mitchell: https://billmitchell.org/blog/?p=31715
- Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
- Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva's Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/
For an intro to MMT:
- Our first three episodes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742417
- Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318
Quick MMT reads:
- Warren's Mosler's MMT white paper: http://moslereconomics.com/mmt-white-paper/
- Steven Hail's quick MMT explainer: https://theconversation.com/explainer-what-is-modern-monetary-theory-72095
- Quick explanation of government debt and deficit: "Some Numbers Are Big. Let Me Help You Get Over It": https://christreilly.com/2020/02/17/some-numbers-are-big-let-me-help-you-get-over-it/
For a short, non-technical, free ebook explaining MMT, download Warren Mosler's "7 Deadly Innocent Frauds Of Economic Policy" here: http://moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf
Episodes on monetary operations:
- Episode 20 - Warren Mosler: The MMT Money Story (part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/28004824
- Episode 126 - Dirk Ehnts: How Banks Create Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/62603318
- Episode 13 - Steven Hail: Everything You Always Wanted To Know About Banking, But Were Afraid To Ask: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41790887
- Episode 43 - Sam Levey: Understanding Endogenous Money: https://www.patreon.com/posts/35073683
- Episode 84 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 1): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46352183
- Episode 86 - Andrew Berkeley, Richard Tye & Neil Wilson: An Accounting Model Of The UK Exchequer (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/46865929
For more on Quantitative Easing:
- Episode 59 - Warren Mosler: What Do Central Banks Do?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/39070023
- Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true
Episodes on inflation:
- Episode 7: Steven Hail: Inflation, Price Shocks and Other Misunderstandings: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41780508
- Episode 65 - Phil Armstrong: Understanding Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/40672678
- Episode 104 - John T Harvey: Inflation, Stagflation & Healing The Nation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/52207835
- Episode 123 - Warren Mosler: Understanding The Price Level And Inflation: https://www.patreon.com/posts/59856379
- Episode 128 - L. Randall Wray & Yeva Nersisyan: What's Causing Accelerating Inflation? Pandemic Or Policy Response?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/63776558
Our Job Guarantee episodes:
- Episode 4 - Fadhel Kaboub: What is the Job Guarantee?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/41742701
- Episode 47 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Building Resilience - The Case For A Job Guarantee: https://www.patreon.com/posts/36034543
- Episode 148 - Pavlina Tcherneva: Why The Job Guarantee Is Core To Modern Monetary Theory: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-148-why-73211346
- Quick read: Pavlina Tcherneva's Job Guarantee FAQ page: https://pavlina-tcherneva.net/job-guarantee-faq/
More on government bonds (and "vigilantes"):
- Episode 30 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 1):https://www.patreon.com/posts/29621245
- Episode 31 - Steven Hail: Understanding Government Bonds (Part 2): https://www.patreon.com/posts/29829500
- Episode 143 - Paul Sheard: What Is Quantitative Easing?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71589989?pr=true
- Episode 147 - Dirk Ehnts: Do Markets Control Our Politics?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/episode-147-dirk-72906421
- Episode 144 - Warren Mosler: The Natural Rate Of Interest Is Zero: https://www.patreon.com/posts/71966513
- Episode 145 - John T Harvey: What Determines Currency Prices?: https://www.patreon.com/posts/72283811?pr=true
More on bank runs banking regulation:
- Episode 162 - Warren Mosler: Anatomy Of A Bank Run: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80157783?pr=true
- Episode 163 - L. Randall Wray: Breaking Banks - The Fed's Magical Monetarist Thinking Strikes Again: https://www.patreon.com/posts/80479169?pr=true
- Episode 165 - Robert Hockett: Sparking An Industrial Renewal By Building Banks Better: https://www.patreon.com/posts/81084983?pr=true
- MMT founder Warren Mosler's Proposals for the Treasury, the Federal Reserve, the FDIC, and the Banking System: https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2010/02/warren-moslers-proposals-for-treasury.html
MMT Events And Courses:
- More information about Professor Bill Mitchell's MMTed project (free public online courses in MMT) here: http://www.mmted.org/
- Details of Modern Money Lab's online graduate and postgraduate courses in MMT and real-world economics are here: https://modernmoneylab.org.au/
Order the Gower Initiative's "Modern Monetary Theory - Key Insights, Leading Thinkers": https://www.e-elgar.com/shop/gbp/modern-monetary-theory-9781802208085.html
MMT Academic Resources compiled by The Gower Initiative for Modern Money Studies: https://www.zotero.org/groups/2251544/mmt_academic_resources_-_compiled_by_the_gower_initiative_for_modern_money_studies
MMT scholarship compiled by New Economic Perspectives: http://neweconomicperspectives.org/mmt-scholarship
A list of MMT-informed campaigns and organisations worldwide: https://www.patreon.com/posts/47900757
We are working towards full transcripts, but in the meantime, closed captions for all episodes are available on our YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEp_nGVTuMfBun2wiG-c0Ew/videos
Show notes: https://www.patreon.com/posts/143438983?pr=true