Untimely Reflections #11: Kevin Rogers - Zen is Philosophy, Zen is not Philosophy
Feb 4, 2022
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Kevin Rogers, musician and co-host of the Knot Zen Podcast, joins the host to talk about Zen, its origins in China and its impact in Japan. They discuss the idea of lingering moments, direct experience of reality, metaphysical implications of Zen realization, and the influence of Daoism. The conversation also includes the host's personal misgivings with Zen and the potential for future episodes on music
Zen philosophy emphasizes both knowledge that and knowledge how, emphasizing the importance of direct and embodied understanding through practice.
Zen is about finding the extraordinary within the ordinary, shifting perception to fully embrace and engage in the present moment.
Zen involves deep exploration of direct experience, mindfulness, and self-transformation, integrating philosophy into everyday life.
Deep dives
The Philosophy of Zen
Zen can be considered a philosophy that involves both knowledge that and knowledge how. While Western philosophy mostly focuses on knowledge that, Zen places a strong emphasis on knowledge how, which is the direct and embodied understanding gained through practice. Zen philosophy involves not only understanding the concepts and principles, but also living and embodying them in one's life. The goal is not just to have knowledge about Zen, but to truly live and experience it.
The Paradox of Enlightenment
Zen teachings often express that there is no difference between ordinary mind and enlightened mind. This can create a paradoxical understanding for those exploring Zen. The realization in Zen is not about seeking or attaining something beyond ordinary life, but rather finding the extraordinary within the ordinary. It is a shift in perception and understanding that allows individuals to fully embrace and engage in the present moment, finding liberation and deep meaning in everyday experiences.
The Path to Zen
For those interested in Zen, the journey involves a deep exploration of direct experience, mindfulness, and self-transformation. Zen is not just about intellectual understanding, but about embodying the teachings in one's own life. It involves practice, meditation, and finding a balance between knowledge and direct experience. Through self-reflection, letting go of attachment, and being present in the present moment, individuals can cultivate a deep sense of peace, clarity, and wisdom.
Living Zen in Everyday Life
The essence of Zen lies in the integration of philosophy into everyday life. It is not a separate entity to be studied or analyzed, but an approach to life itself. Zen encourages individuals to live fully in each present moment, experiencing the world without judgment or preconceived notions. By embracing the ordinary and finding beauty in simplicity, one can cultivate a sense of mindfulness, compassion, and awareness that extends beyond the formal meditation practice. Zen is a way of being, an ongoing process of self-discovery and transformation.
Discussion on the interpretation of Zen and its relation to solipsism and faith
The podcast episode delves into the philosophical aspects of Zen, particularly in relation to solipsism, epistemology, and faith. The hosts explore the idea that Zen is not necessarily about escaping samsara, but rather a different perspective on regular old living. They discuss the concept of Samsara and the interpretation of Zen language used in Zen texts, questioning whether the language is used critically or genuinely. The conversation also touches on the influence of Taoism on Zen and the potential misinterpretation of Zen as a form of solipsism.
Link between Zen and Taoism, the faith in mind poem, and the concept of the ideal and the actual
The podcast explores the connection between Zen and Taoism, considering Zen as Buddhism in Taoism. The hosts discuss the influence of Taoist philosophy on Zen and the significance of the faith in mind poem in Zen texts. They highlight phrases such as 'don't pick and choose' and reflect on the concept of the ideal and the actual in Zen. Additionally, they draw parallels to Bishop Berkeley's idealism and the question of sense perception and external reality influenced by the senses.
Kevin Rogers is a musician, one of my old friends from the Zen forum & one of the co-hosts of the Knot Zen Podcast.
In this episode, we talk about Zen found in the corpus of literature produced during the middle ages in China, and the dialectical shift that happened when this Chinese movement was brought into Japan by Dogen. Kevin gives an explanation of Zen, which dovetails into discussions on the idea of lingering moments, the direct experience of reality, and the epistemic implications of reality as shaped by our own minds. We touched upon what the Zen realization is, and whether there are metaphysical implications to this, as well as to the practice of meditation, as well the Daoist influence on Zen. The conversation concludes with some of my own misgivings within the Zen tradition and why I no longer consider it a defining feature of my intellectual identity.
Kevin and I are both musicians, and we plan to do a second episode talking about music, or possibly even another episode on this same topic, depending on the audience reaction.
The Knot Zen Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/5GzOskDnm3IZIpHBHmUKIZ
Kevin's musical group, The Friction String Quartet: https://www.frictionquartet.com/
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