See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Creative Entrepreneurship With Dr Rebecca White

How can you implement ‘See, Do, Repeat' in your writing and author business? How can you embrace optimism as a creative entrepreneur and move past fear of judgment to publish your book? Dr Rebecca White shares her journey and tips.

In the intro, Short form audio opportunities and tips [Self Publishing Advice]; Wiley's guidelines for AI usage; Collective licensing for UK authors [The Guardian]; Entrepreneurship and writing, I'm on The En Factor Podcast;

Plus, Successful Self-Publishing Fourth Edition on pre-order, and I’m on the El Camino de Santiago Pilgrim Podcast talking about my walk along the Portuguese coastal route.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital.com to get started.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Dr. Rebecca White is an award-winning entrepreneur, executive board member, professor, and the author of See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Entrepreneurship. She's also the host of the En Factor Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Rebecca's entrepreneurial journey and background
• Actionable steps to embrace the entrepreneurial mindset
• The “See, Do, Repeat” framework
• Applying the “See, Do, Repeat” framework to author entrepreneurship
• The role of optimism in entrepreneurship
• Transitioning from academic writing to popular books
• Overcoming fear of judgement by peers

You can find Rebecca at DrRebeccaWhite.com.

Transcript of Interview with Dr. Rebecca White

Joanna: Dr. Rebecca White is an award-winning entrepreneur, executive board member, professor, and the author of See, Do, Repeat: The Practice of Entrepreneurship. She's also the host of the En Factor Podcast. So welcome to the show, Rebecca.

Rebecca: Thank you, Joanna. I am honored to be here. I love your podcast, and I'm excited. I am reading your book Pilgrimage, and I just love everything that you've done. So it's really great to be here and have this conversation today.

Joanna: Oh, well, thanks so much. So first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and what drives your interest in entrepreneurship.

Rebecca: I grew up in this small town in West Virginia. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it's quite rural. I always had these dreams and interests of doing other things rather than being in a small town.

I had a wonderful mother. Her name was Betty White. So great name, maybe not the Betty White most people think of. She had an entrepreneurial mindset back before we even had the words to put with it, and so I learned about this whole mindset from her as a child.

It's really driven everything I've done. It's kind of like it grabbed me, and I had to hold on. So I've really applied an entrepreneurial mindset in everything that I've done, from being an educator to a book author to a podcaster to even a corporate board member.

You mentioned all those slashes in my career, I think that's part of being an entrepreneur as well, this whole idea that there's always something new and a new opportunity to explore. So it's really just been a part of my life, and everything that I've done, I think because I learned it from her.

Joanna: That's cool. When you said West Virginia, I just had that song playing, “Take Me Home, Country Road.”

Rebecca: Yes, everybody knows that.

Joanna: Yes, that's the only thing. I've never been there, but that's what it brought to mind, which was quite funny.

So you were in the small town and you had this mindset, but how did you get out of the small town and get into work? How did you make it out of there?

I know some people listening, it might just be a life situation they're trapped in, or a job. Many people are in a job, and they might want to be more entrepreneurial, but they didn't have the mindset that your mom gave you.

How did you get out of that small town? How can other people get out if they feel trapped?

Rebecca: That's a really great question. For me, it was education, and I just kept going. My parents valued education. My mom was very curious, and she was way ahead of her time, the way she approached life and saw things.

She had her own business. She was a florist. When I graduated with my undergraduate degree, she invited me to come back and take over the business, and that's like the last thing I wanted to do. I had worked in that business all my years growing up.

It was great for her. It was a great opportunity for our family. It afforded my brother and I the opportunity to get an education. Once I left and went to college—and I didn't go that far away at first—but once I went to college, I just knew that I wasn't going to go back.

There wasn't a lot there, and fortunately, my parents didn't expect it. So for me, I was young, and so it was through taking my first job and then going back to school. There's all kinds of stories in there that I could share, but really—

It was just taking one step at a time and having parents that supported that.

At a young age, I just had sort of a wanderlust, I guess. I felt like there were always opportunities out there that I wanted to check out and try.

I also got married in the process, later divorced. I went to graduate school, I got my masters, and then I got a job teaching with my masters and found that I did well with that. So I went back to get a doctorate, and after I got my doctorate, I accepted a teaching position in Cincinnati, Ohio.

I was actually educated in Virginia at Virginia Tech, and then went to Cincinnati, Ohio. By this time, I had two small children and I was divorced. It was quite a challenging time for me. I managed to write a dissertation with two small children as a single parent, it wasn't easy.

Then I took that job in Cincinnati and started building programs and really became part of a movement in entrepreneurship education. Actually, my PhD is not in entrepreneurship, but that's because they really didn't have that kind of degree back then.

So I got a PhD in strategic management, and took my first job. There weren't any entrepreneurship courses offered at that time. So I was very fortunate, I had a dean at the time that was very supportive and allowed me to pursue this interest in offering an entrepreneurship course.

We offered a course, and it was something the university had never offered, so I had to create it. I explored the field, the discipline, the few people that were out there doing this. I did my research and created this course.

Then we raised money. So just like any entrepreneurial adventure, we had to raise enough money to start a program. So I went through all the steps, really, of a startup to build an entrepreneurship program at this university in Cincinnati, Ohio.

In doing so, I really kind of launched my career as sort of the second tier pioneering group in entrepreneurship education. Since then, I've just had so many opportunities to work with programs and work with students around the world in this space of entrepreneurship education.

So really it was education that, for me—it's not for everybody—but for me, it was the way that I was able to get out and build this career.

Joanna: If you don't mind, you referred a few times to the past—

Can you tell people how old you are so that they get some sense of how long this period has been?

Rebecca: Yes, I'm in my 60s now. So I've been teaching and doing this entrepreneurship gig for almost four decades. It's been a long time.

What I thought by now, Jo, would be that I would be retired, or at least close to retiring, but the opportunities just still come along, and they keep getting bigger, it seems like.

Joanna: Also, I wonder whether entrepreneurs ever retire!

Rebecca: I don't think so.

Joanna: No, exactly. You want to start something else, right? Let's get into the book.

What is the “See, Do, Repeat” framework, and why is it useful for authors to consider?

Rebecca: Teaching all those years as an entrepreneur, I saw a lot of change in our field. So when I first started teaching, it was all about starting a business. In fact, in the earliest years, it was more about small business.

Everything was taking what we had studied in business school, which was primarily around corporate business, and applying it in a miniature way, if you will. It really didn't work, and so the field started to develop its own body of literature and research around entrepreneurship.

That direction was really interesting because although it started in this whole area of creating new companies and running small businesses, it really morphed, I would say, into a focus on the mindset of entrepreneurship and how it applies in almost virtually any context.

I started out my description of my background by just saying that I've applied it everywhere, and so that became really interesting to me. I've always been fascinated by the way people think and by the stories.

You mentioned my podcast, and it's why I love my podcast. I just love to ask people lots of questions and find out about them and the way they think.

So this whole book is really, I would say, 20 years of research that I had been doing trying to understand what this entrepreneurial mindset was. We talked about it a lot, but it didn't have a whole lot of definition. People always seemed to know it when they saw it, but they didn't really know exactly how to describe it.

Entrepreneurship education became much more than just starting a business.

It's applying it in so many other contexts. We've had students come through that have been interested in starting not for profits. They've started churches.

They've developed new products that then they licensed. They didn't even start a company around them. I found I was always drawn to the creative students, and I think you and your audience would appreciate this, because I saw over the years that most creatives had to have some of these entrepreneurial mindset skills.

They were going to be in a position where they were taking advantage of opportunities, and they were going to have to raise money, or at least find a way to pursue their craft. That included maybe some marketing. It included maybe raising money from donors and investors.

So I became very interested very early on, for entrepreneurship and entrepreneurial mindset for students who are not studying business. So that's been a lot of the focus of why this book was written.

I spent a lot of years trying to understand an entrepreneurial mindset. So this book was really an effort to bring all this academic literature to a popular audience and share the idea of a mindset in a very, very simple and easy to remember and understand framework.

So that, “see, do, repeat,” it's based also in what we call competencies. A lot of fields, like nursing and healthcare, have used competencies for a long time to find a way to measure tasks that are challenging to define and measure.

So it's identifying three competencies of an entrepreneurial mindset. Over the years, these are the three competencies, and then associated with each of them are multiple skills that I found have been repeated among all entrepreneurs.

It's the ability to recognize opportunities, that's the “see” part. The willingness to take action that's “do.”

Then the perseverance and resilience to execute past failure because failure is definitely a part of every success journey.

Along the way, the people who are not successful as entrepreneurs tend to get stopped. They may recognize an opportunity. Multiple times a day, I have people reaching out to me with, “I have an idea. What do you think?” The difference is, do you take action on that, and then do you keep going and execute past failure?

So there are a lot of things we could talk about with that, but that's the principles of the book. It's really to take all this academic research of an entrepreneurial mindset and make it something simple and something that people can apply.

Joanna: Can you give us a concrete example of the “See, Do, Repeat” in the author entrepreneur space?

Rebecca: Sure, absolutely. I'll use my own example if that's okay. So what happened with me, I've been writing for a long time, academic writing, and it's a completely different animal. I've also been a writer for, you know, always.

I write for fun, and I write for therapy. I know you've talked about The Morning Pages by Julia Cameron. My mom gave me that book many years ago because she was an artist. So I've written for therapy. I love writing.

This particular book, I was approached by a pretty well-known book publisher in the academic world write books, not for textbooks, but for faculty. Those books are much more academic and they combine research. So I was approached by a book publisher to write a book on entrepreneurial mindset for that audience.

So that was pre-pandemic, and so I started exploring that. I had conversations with an editor that was assigned to me, and so we were getting started on that whole process when the pandemic happened. So my editor lost her job, and I was assigned to somebody else, and we didn't have a great fit.

So I stepped back from that, and I thought about it, and I said —

Am I really that interested in continuing to write for other academics? Because what I'm really interested in is how I can make this book different.

So the opportunity started to emerge for me, and I started to recognize in my world that there was probably an opportunity out there for people to learn more about this. So I think for any book author, it's paying attention to the world around you.

I talk about this in my book, about how we recognize opportunities.

Really, curiosity is a big part of it, anybody who's curious, paying attention, and then connecting the dots.

That's a big part of the creative process.

So for me, a lot of it was there were messages coming from outside that maybe I had the expertise and the credentials to do this. There were also messages coming to me from other people that I was working with, or people that I was surrounded with, or things that I read that led me to believe there was an opportunity to write for a different audience.

So that opportunity came. The taking action, that was a really tough one because I started down this path, like so many others, without a clue about what it would take to write a more popular press book. So there's a lot of lessons I learned there.

I had to overcome a lot of my own personal beliefs that I didn't have the skills to write a book that would be successful and popular.

The more I learned about what it meant to get published by a traditional publisher, which was pretty much all I knew at that time, I just saw that it was going to be a monumental hurdle to overcome. So I just started doing my research and started taking action.

I could have stopped there. I could have gone back to writing what I was comfortable with or knew, but I didn't. I continued to persevere, and I had lots of failures along the way.

In fact, this book was first published by, I wouldn't say a traditional publisher, but an intermediary publisher, let's just say that. I don't want to say too much about them because it wasn't a great experience, but I learned a lot along that process.

While I don't necessarily think that publishing this book was a huge failure, it wasn't the success that I had hoped

— or that it maybe could have been, and I had lots of failures along the way.

In fact, not getting paid royalties for a long time, and a lot of other things that just didn't work out.

Also, not understanding, quite frankly, that I had to really put a lot of effort into marketing. That was probably my biggest lack of understanding.

I've never been an absolutely huge fan of social media, although I do more of it now, and I have people that help me. Students are great with that, by the way. I made a lot of mistakes along the way, and I feel like the “See, Do, Repeat,” it's played out in everything that I've done.

I think for any book author—back to your original question, long answer—it's really about once you see that opportunity, putting it out there and testing it, and then educating yourself as to what it takes to make it happen, and then continuing to persevere.

The repeat of the “See, Do, Repeat” model is sometimes the hardest one for people to understand because I am not suggesting that you never change course, I'm not suggesting that every idea that you have is truly an opportunity that should be acted on.

So it's not that, but it's about really recognizing that if you remain optimistic and you recognize the problem that you're trying to solve, and you stay focused on that problem rather than the solution you had in mind, you will come to an outcome that will be favorable.

Out of the process, along the same time that I was writing this book, I was launching my podcast. What happened was —

My podcast really became research for my book.

I was able to take my research out of my office, so to speak, and make it available so everybody could hear the stories.

So as I was writing the book, I was able to use stories that I was capturing as I was doing the podcast. So it all came together.

I never could have envisioned that exactly. I knew where I was headed. I knew what the opportunity was that I thought was there, but I had to stay focused on the problem I was trying to solve. So that got me to where I needed to be.

Joanna: Yes, and I think what's also interesting is some people—like you said you had a difficult time with the publisher that you had originally used—some people would have just given up on that book and maybe written another book or something.

You also clearly chose to keep focused on making this book more of a success. So presumably—

You went and got the rights back, and then got on with the publishing process yourself.

Rebecca: Yes. In fact, I'm an indie publisher now, and in large part thanks to you and what I've learned from you. So I published this book in '21, and I still believe in it. I still believe it's an important book, and I intend to continue to market it and sell it and use it in the model, because I still believe in it.

I've gotten a lot of positive feedback about it, but I also decided that I wanted to have more control over it. I needed to walk the talk what I was teaching my students to do.

So I was Googling around, trying to find out how to get back the rights to my book, and I came across a podcast that you did a couple of years ago. I know you've got about 800 now, so it was in the 600s.

Joanna: This one would have been with Katlyn Duncan, probably. She's got a book called Take Back Your Book.

[Check out the interview with Katlyn here.]

Rebecca: I think that's probably right. It was a few years back, and I listened to that. Interestingly, I have a husband who's an attorney, but in spite of that, this is a very specific kind of thing I wanted to do.

Getting out there and hearing your podcast was the beginning point for me. Then I started listening to more of them, and I still enjoy them.

I have really embraced this idea of being an indie publisher, and I love it.

I have other books I want to write. In fact, some fiction books I'd love to write, but that's a whole other story.

Joanna: I love that. I think what you've done there is great. A lot of nonfiction authors who have—like, this is your whole career. This book is one of the magnum opus style books. It really does encapsulate a lot of your body of work.

So, of course, you're going to keep promoting that, keep marketing that, keep doing other work around it. I think that's really important to say, in the indie community, we often focus on having more books, writing more books, putting more out there, which is one way.

There's also a lot of people, especially in nonfiction, who have one sort of key book, even if you're going to write more. Then that's the sort of focus of their talks and their career side. So I think that's completely valid.

You did mention the word optimistic, which I wanted to come back on, because you have a whole chapter on optimism. I'm, by default, an optimist. I'm also a techno-optimist. I think humans will figure things out.

As we talk now, it's April 2025, and we're not going to get into politics and the world, but it is an uncertain time. With AI and all of this, authors can feel not quite so optimistic.

How can we choose optimism and foster optimism?

Rebecca: I love that question. I saw this modeled in my mom and my grandfather, in particular. I'm like you, I'm optimistic as well. I think every entrepreneur has to have some level of optimism because otherwise, why would you do it?

If you don't believe that you have agency, if you don't believe that you have some control over your future, if you don't have some hope for the future, why would you do all the work that's required? So it's really, in my mind, optimism is about creating your own destiny through choice and action.

That, to me, is a big part of what an entrepreneurial mindset is all about. Optimism also sees opportunities instead of difficulties. I'll give you an example.

When the pandemic caused us to have to go online with all of our classes and teaching, we had some graduate students at our university that were quite upset over the experience.

I understand everybody was upset. It was a very scary time, and you're right, we still have a lot of uncertainty. I did a little video for them to talk to them about how that period in time was very special, and it was a unique opportunity for them to find opportunity.

It resonated with some of them. Some of them continued to be angry about the experience because, quite honestly, we have a beautiful facility on our campus for entrepreneurship, and they had signed up to be able to take advantage of all the events and programs and things that we run in person there.

The idea that they weren't going to get that, they felt cheated, and I understand that. We did our best to create alternative opportunities for them, but at the end of the day, as we look back on it, I think we can all think of many examples of things that came out of the pandemic which were positive outcomes and opportunities.

Certainly many were not, but that optimism, I think, is something that is critical for entrepreneurs. I talk about it in my book, there are dangers of being overly optimistic, and there's plenty of research that shown that, especially if you're overly optimistic about your financial situation, that can be kind of dangerous.

Most psychologists agree that optimism can be learned.

So it's not a static thing. It really has to do with the way you look at the world. Whether you personalize things, or whether you recognize that everything in the world is not about you. The pervasiveness of things and the permanence of things.

So you can really, if you feel like maybe, anybody that's listening, that you would like to be more optimistic, there is something called learned optimism. There's books out there and plenty of things that you can do.

I think it's critical to have that trust in ourselves. What's the alternative, really, Jo? Do we just stop and sit and complain? You know, that's not much fun.

Joanna: No. I think that is a really good point. I'm sure there is a default level of optimism that people have, and I think obviously you and I have that. As you said, it can be learned.

I think one of the things I've discovered for myself as well. In the beginning of the pandemic—and in fact, I look at my photos, I took a lot of screenshots—in the first few months in 2020, from the January, because I was on Twitter looking at what was coming out of China and then Italy and all of this.

I took so many screenshots, evidence of my doom scrolling. I thought I was going to write a book on a pandemic, as many of us did at that time. Then I obviously realized that this wasn't helpful.

My photos—I take a lot of photos and screenshots and stuff—but my photos change to pictures of flowers and the outdoors and walking a lot more, and I've avoided the TV news.

I haven't watched the news on TV for over a decade, probably more like two decades.

I do read the news on some apps on my phone, but I don't watch TV news. This is a challenge for people listening, like one of the things I think makes me more optimistic is just curating what goes into my head and being quite careful.

Some people think that's denying what's going on, but I'm very aware of what's going on. I just don't do it in an overly emotional way.

What are some of the practices you think foster optimism?

Rebecca: Well, I love that. Making that choice. I mentioned that it's really about choice and agency. There's a lot we can't control. That's just the bottom line, I've learned that, but there's a lot we can control. That's exactly what you're talking about. You can control how much of that you let into your head.

It can be hard. I'm married to a news junkie, and it can be really hard because I want to know what's going on in the world, and I'm like you, I tend to read it more than watch it on TV.

I also choose, for example, during the pandemic, I don't know if it was the same in the UK, but for a while, every night, there would be this thing on the news about how many people had died that day. I'm like, I am not going to bed thinking about how many people died today.

I mean, there are plenty of people that, sadly, die every day, no matter what's going on in the world.

Joanna: It's life. People die.

Rebecca: That's right, that's right. There were people being born as well. So I made that choice. It sounds really weird, but when I made the choice to stop all of that, I remember I had this really vivid dream, and it was in color. I mean, this is going to sound so weird, but I had this dream that I was flying.

It was like I was leaving all that behind, and I was going to accept that whatever happened happened, and I could control what I could control, and that was it. I would suggest that it's about taking control of what we let into our head, just like you said. Choice and action and agency.

Recognizing that there's only so many things we could control, but within what we can control, we have so much power.

Joanna: Yes, in what we can control. Yes—

If I get too miserable, I will get off the computer, off my phone, and go for a walk in nature.

Rebecca: Nature is great, yes.

Joanna: It just gives you that perspective. I was thinking, because at the moment here in Bath, the sun is out, spring is here, things are growing again. Things in my garden that I seriously thought were dead have started sprouting and growing leaves. It's another one of those, you know, this too shall pass, and the seasons will turn again.

That just makes me feel more positive and happy. It's been a very long winter here. I imagine some people listening, it might still be winter by the time they hear this. I feel like that also makes me more optimistic is seeing how nature recovers every year. Things always get better.

Rebecca: Absolutely. I think I mentioned it in the book too, gratitude. That was something that my mom always believed in. I think gratitude, and just joy. I have to say, I always enjoy your podcast because you are always so joyful in the way you communicate with people. I just think that is very special.

We have that choice to be kind and to bring joy to what we're doing.

It's so amazing when I meet people that I know are struggling, but they're still able to be kind and thoughtful to the people around them.

Taking, I guess, that pressure off by not focusing so much on ourselves and what's missing, but opening up to the fact that there are other people in the world, and we can bring joy to them and ourselves at the same time.

Joanna: Well, coming back to the book, because you did say earlier that you've written a lot of academic writing as part of your job, and that this was your sort of trying to write something more popular. What I would say is that it is incredibly well researched and has a lot of references.

It is, I would say, more of a crossover to academic books. It's certainly not a pop sort of book where there's no references at all or maybe only a couple in the appendix. For example, the kind of things I've written. I wondered what your thoughts were.

So there are people listening who will be academic writers, and they will struggle with, I think, a lot of the relaxing that has to go into writing a more popular book.

Any tips for those who want to cross over from academic writing to more popular books?

Rebecca: Yes, thank you for that question. That was a struggle for me, and a lot of it has to do with how you're trained, I guess, or prepped for whatever the opportunity is that you're going to pursue with your writing.

For me, I had been living in this world where everything I had written, before it was published, it was going to be peer reviewed, and it was going to be evaluated for accuracy and legitimacy and reliability and credibility. So the idea that I could just write something, I could say it was totally, totally different for me.

I think you're right. I mean, I worried a little bit about whether this book would be readable, but I felt like I really changed my writing style a lot.

Joanna: It's definitely readable, just to be clear for everyone. This is a popular book, but I can also sense the amount of research, and you're very meticulous about that. So I think you have managed both, but it is hard, I know.

Rebecca: Well, thank you for that. I really appreciate that. That's a very high form of compliment for me because I think that fits with who I am and my background.

It was challenging because I wanted it to be readable. The name, as an example, coming up with that “See, Do, Repeat” name, I practiced what I write about in the book.

One of the techniques that I recommend to help get your creative juices flowing is to do something that takes your mind completely off of everything that you're doing. It's called the incubation period.

So I work out a lot, and I've been a runner. So I was working with my editor and publisher on the name, and we had gone through all these names. I went out for a run one day, and I was just really pushing it. I had all this research in my head that we'd been doing, and all of a sudden it came to me.

I'm like, what word—and I'm fascinated by words, I love words, but I guess every author is—but I said, what words would convey this in the simplest form? So that's how I came up with “See, Do, Repeat.”

The whole book is really kind of taking my academic writing and reframing it and trying to think about it from a very practical, applied way.

I think one of the things that helped me most was to really focus on storytelling.

It was easy, again, because I was in the midst of my podcast. Although not every story comes from my podcast, most of them come from entrepreneurs that I have interviewed, either in my classroom or for my podcast, or that I've spent time working with.

I think that's how I made that transition. I was able to reference books and other research that supported what I was talking about, and I tried to keep that, but only on a smaller scale, and then supplement that with stories. I thought that would make it more relatable.

Joanna: Did you have any fear of judgment by other academics?

Just that feeling, I imagine, would have been quite different doing this book compared to writing an academic paper.

Rebecca: Oh, my gosh. Yes. Did I have fear of judgment? Yes, on every count. That's probably been the thing, if I were going to advise anybody about writing, it's that you got to get over that. I had that very early on with my academic writing. I would hold on to things far too long.

I think this book would have been published many years earlier if I had allowed myself to get beyond that. So, yes. I mean, I had to let go of that.

I went to a conference, it was at Notre Dame University, and I had just published this book. I was among many of my peers that I had worked with for many years, and it was very scary to have my book there.

What's interesting, for that conference now, ever since that—you know, I had books there, and I actually had a little table and sold some of them, not many, quite honestly—but ever since that time, the organizers of the conference have been buying my book for everybody that attends.

Even though it scared me to death to put it out there in front of my colleagues, they're sharing it with other educators.

So it's not the audience I initially intended it for, but I'm grateful that they're doing that. I just had to overcome that fear of judgment, which it's always out there if you're doing something creative.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. So we are out of time.

Where can people find you, and your book, and everything you do online?

Rebecca: Oh, well, thank you for asking that, Joanna. I just have to say I'm working on a new book now. It's called Choose Yourself, and it's tied to the very last chapter of my book. I'm pre-selling that book on my website in a very different way, and I'm sharing parts of it as I go through writing it.

So it's really a model to help people take that “do” step. So if you could visit my website, it's DrRebeccaWhite.com. I'm also available on LinkedIn, same handle, @DrRebeccaWhite. Then on Instagram and on Facebook, @DrRebeccaJWhite. So I'd love for you to visit me there.

I have a new community which I've started, and I'm writing this new book. Again, it's all to help anyone who wants to do something entrepreneurial or make a big transition in their life, pursue a passion. I'd love to help.

That's kind of my legacy, to help as many people as I can have the joy of an entrepreneurial mindset as they go through their lives.

Joanna: Just also mention your podcast.

Rebecca: Oh, yes, my podcast. I'm sorry. It's the En Factor Podcast, and you'll be happy to know that I have the infamous Joanna Penn coming on the podcast. I think by the time this is aired, it should be available. It's called the En Factor. It's all about entrepreneurial mindset. So yes, please check out the En Factor Podcast and all my other resources on my website.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Rebecca. That was great.

Rebecca: Joanna, thank you. It's been an honor and such a pleasure.

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