Ep292: Dharma Reunited - Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong 2
Feb 7, 2025
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Daniel Ingram, an independent Buddhist writer and co-founder of the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium, engages with Delson Armstrong, a spiritual teacher and founder of the Freedom of Mind foundation. They discuss the implications of recent renunciations and the challenges of revising enlightenment concepts, addressing criticisms surrounding traditional Buddhist doctrines. Their conversation highlights the intersections of meditation, neuroscience, and spiritual practices, emphasizing the need for personal narratives within evolving spiritual communities.
Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss differing interpretations of Enlightenment in Buddhism, revealing the complexity of spiritual experiences and personal growth.
Delson's renunciation highlights the need for honesty and introspection in spiritual journeys, emphasizing the importance of redefining personal interpretations over rigid adherence to doctrines.
The conversation addresses the impact of advancements in contemplative neuroscience on traditional spirituality, suggesting a shift towards empirical understandings of enlightenment experiences without dismissing cultural contexts.
Deep dives
Comparison of Enlightenment Claims
Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong discuss significant differences in their interpretations of Enlightenment within Buddhism. In an earlier dialogue, Delson described his experience of a form of Enlightenment that included the permanent removal of negative emotions, whereas Daniel emphasized a shift in perception rather than a complete elimination of feelings. This contrast showcases the complexity of spiritual experiences, particularly regarding the idea of achieving a state void of negative emotions such as fear and desire. Their ongoing dialogue provides insight into how different interpretations of the four-path model can lead to varied claims about personal spiritual development.
Impact of Renunciations on Practice
Delson reflects on his decision to renounce his previous claims of spiritual attainment and the subsequent implications for his practice community and students. He acknowledges that his past insistence on attaining a specific model of Enlightenment may have led to misconceptions amongst those he teaches. Daniel and Delson consider how individual experiences can redefine one's understanding of spiritual paths, highlighting a shift from rigid adherence to models toward a more personal exploration of spiritual growth. This transformation underscores the importance of honesty and introspection in the spiritual journey.
Crisis of Identity in Spiritual Communities
Both Daniel and Delson examine the emotional turmoil that can arise within spiritual communities when members publicly renounce their previous attainments. As Daniel shares, many practitioners may feel embarrassed and confused when their beliefs or claims are challenged. This scenario is further complicated by the inherent desirability of spiritual ideals within communities that often lead to a kind of self-hypnosis. The discussion reveals the delicate balance between nurturing collective ideals while also encouraging personal authenticity and flexibility in individual experiences.
Critique of Traditional Buddhist Doctrines
The pair address criticisms directed at their revisions of key Buddhist doctrines, particularly the four-path model of awakening. They acknowledge the potential backlash from traditionalists who may view their changing perspectives as a decline in the standards of spiritual attainment. Daniel expresses a sense of vindication in light of Delson's renunciation, yet emphasizes the ongoing nature of their exploration as more significant than the notion of being 'correct.' This dialogue highlights a broader trend within modern spirituality, where personal interpretations are often contested against traditional beliefs.
Role of Neuroscience in Spiritual Understanding
Daniel and Delson discuss how advancements in contemplative neuroscience may challenge traditional religious frameworks, particularly in Buddhism. They express excitement over the potential for neuroimaging studies to provide insights into states of consciousness traditionally framed within spiritual contexts. This intersection represents a shift towards empirical investigations of Enlightenment experiences while acknowledging the rich nuances of various spiritual practices. The dialogue serves as a reminder that while scientific inquiry may validate aspects of spiritual experiences, it can't replace the cultural and moral contexts that shape those practices.
Navigating Teacher-Student Dynamics
Delson reflects on the complex dynamics that arise in teacher-student relationships, particularly after renunciations of previously held views. He describes the challenges of maintaining authority while also encouraging personal exploration among his students, who may feel confused by his shifts in teaching. Daniel emphasizes the importance of humility and vulnerability in these roles, indicating that teachers themselves can navigate the unpredictability of their journeys while supporting their students. This conversation sheds light on the evolving nature of spiritual leadership, emphasizing the importance of shared exploration over rigid adherence.
In this episode I once again host a dialogue between Daniel Ingram and Delson Armstrong.
Daniel Ingram is an independent Buddhist writer, author of ‘Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha’, and co-founder of the Emergent Phenomenology Research Consortium (EPRC).
Delson Armstrong is a spiritual teacher, author of ’A Mind Without Craving’, and founder of the Freedom of Mind foundation.
Daniel offers his response to Delson’s recent renunciations, warns about the power of self hypnosis, and explains why it is so common for people to revise their enlightenment claims.
Delson considers how it was that he mistook the nature of his spiritual achievements, considers the impact of his renunciation on his practice community and students, and looks ahead to his own future as a teacher and guide.
Daniel and Delson address criticisms they have both received for their revisions of important Buddhist doctrines such as the 4 path model of awakening, comment on gatekeeping and fundamentalism in Buddhism, and consider whether advances in contemplative neuroscience may pose a serious threat to traditional religions and their institutions.
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01:51 - The situation
04:36 - Daniel’s response to Delson’s renunciation
07:14 - Early schism in Buddhism
08:20 - Does Daniel feel vindicated?
09:42 - Delson reflects on what he has learned from Daniel
12:34 - The snake has shed its skin
13:29 - Profound not simple
14:26 - Neurodiversity and the spiritual path
16:54 - Hypnotising yourself into believing you’re enlightened
19:17 - How did Delson get his enlightenment wrong?
22:22 - Social factors
24:13 - A gradual process
25:06 - Gatekeepin in Buddhism
27:35 - Jack Kornfield and Christopher Titmuss
30:51 - Social influence on perceptions of spiritual progress
33:35 - Relationships
35:21 - The World Without Sin
38:43 - Can you ever go back? Spoiling the party
40:38 - Delson on negative reactions from his community
43:57 - Attached to models, experiences, and perfection?
46:17 - Stages of development
47:17 - Leading with vulnerability
48:45 - A different type of practitioner
49:55 - The appeal of Vajrayāna
52:21 - Specific criticisms of Daniel and Delson
54:19 - Why do Daniel & Delson revise Buddhism?
56:43 - Delson's critics
59:51 - Transference and counter-transference
01:01:18 - Tantric guru yoga
01:01:47 - When your guru disappoints
01:02:05 - Bhikkhu Anālayo and Daniel's other critics
01:02:27 - Neuroscience and religious orthodoxy
01:06:34 - Will neuroscience destroy Buddhism?
01:10:24 - Praise for the Theravāda
01:11:45 - Theravādan exceptionalism
01:12:37 - Validating or defeating religion?
01:15:43 - Finders’ Course and retrenchment to orthodoxy
01:17:57 - Delson on contemplative neuroscience
01:20:39 - What does Daniel think will next happen to Delson?
01:23:23 - Maturing as a spiritual explorer
01:26:33 - Attachment styles & kalyāṇa-mittatā
01:28:40 - Loss of enthusiasm for practice in advanced practitioners
01:31:18 - Micro-renunciations and disgust for the quest
01:33:42 - When spiritual teachers lose their faith
0135:28 - How Delson keeps his interest in teaching
01:38:20 - Why Daniel decided not to become a teacher
01:40:32 - Delson’s closing remarks
01:40:45 - Daniel’s closing remarks
01:41:04 - Praise for the religious orthodoxy
01:42:21 - Acknowledging critics
01:43:17 - Disagreeing with grace and respect
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Previous dialogue between Daniel and Delson:
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znX6w6shQ7c
Previous episodes with Daniel:
- https://www.guruviking.com/search?q=daniel
Previous episodes with Delson:
- https://www.guruviking.com/search?q=delson
To find out more about Daniel, visit:
- https://theeprc.org/
- integrateddaniel.info
To find out more about Delson, visit:
- https://www.delsonarmstrong.com/
- https://www.youtube.com/@delson999
- https://www.freedom-of-mind.org/
www.guruviking.com
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James
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