#232 - Hibernate Creator on Why Developers Hate ORM (And How We're Fixing It) - Gavin King

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Sep 22, 2025

Gavin King, the creator of Hibernate and a key contributor to Jakarta EE, dives into the complexities of Object-Relational Mapping and why so many developers harbor mixed feelings about it. He shares the origin story of Hibernate, discussing early Java EE frustrations that sparked its creation. The podcast explores the importance of type safety, the evolution of Jakarta specifications, and critiques industry dogmas like DDD aggregates. Gavin emphasizes that architecture should organically develop from the code and highlights the value of healthy debate within engineering teams.

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ANECDOTE

How Hibernate Began

Gavin King started Hibernate after arguing with his boss who wanted entity beans and found them not to work well.
He created an open-source project, attracted JBoss, and later moved to Atlanta to grow Hibernate full-time.

INSIGHT

Specifications Force Better Design

Gavin argues specifications force clarity and surface edge cases you must think through.
He credits the Java community process for improving the platform after early mistakes.

INSIGHT

Type Safety Drives Jakarta Data

Modern Jakarta efforts focus on type safety and compile-time query checking to reduce runtime errors.
Jakarta Data and Jakarta Query aim to make queries type-safe and usable across different datastore types.

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“Architecture is something that has to emerge naturally from the code. If it doesn’t make the code better, more elegant, and more flexible, then you should not be doing it.”

Why do so many developers have a love-hate relationship with ORM? The creator of Hibernate reveals the real reasons behind the controversy and what’s being done to fix the fundamental issues.

In this episode, Gavin King, the creator of Hibernate, shares the story behind its creation, from a debate with his boss to its rise as a popular open-source. He dives deep into why developers often dislike ORM, pinpointing the “magic” of the stateful persistence context as a major pain point.

Gavin explains how modern specifications are fixing these historical issues with an emphasis on type safety and more explicit, stateless operations, giving developers greater control.

Key topics discussed:

The origin story of Hibernate and the early frustrations with Java EE
The single biggest mistake that led some developers to hate ORM
Why type safety matters and how the new Jakarta specifications enable type-safe queries
Why architecture should emerge from code, not from whiteboard diagrams
A critique on industry dogmas and architecture best practices, including DDD aggregates
Why disagreement is essential for healthy engineering teams

Timestamps:

(00:00:00) Trailer & Intro
(00:02:24) Career Turning Points
(00:16:11) The Problems That Led to Hibernate Creation
(00:24:22) Key Things That Make Hibernate Successful
(00:31:57) Behind the Scene of Java EE Specifications
(00:37:42) The Renaming of Java EE to Jakarta EE
(00:40:15) Jakarta Persistence, Jakarta Data, Jakarta Query Language
(00:47:20) The Importance of Type Safety
(00:54:08) Why Some People Dislike ORM
(01:00:47) The Fundamental of Data Fetching and Association
(01:08:52) The Upcoming Jakarta Data and QL Updates
(01:16:06) Gavin’s View on Software Architecture
(01:26:08) The DDD from Gavin’s Perspective
(01:30:55) Tech Lead Wisdom

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Gavin King’s Bio
Gavin King is the creator of Hibernate, the revolutionary framework that redefined data persistence for millions of Java developers. A key figure in the evolution of enterprise Java, he has led the development of major industry standards like the Java Persistence API (JPA) and CDI. After a decade designing the Ceylon programming language, he has returned to his roots to advance the next generation of data persistence with Jakarta EE.

Follow Gavin:

LinkedIn – linkedin.com/in/gavinking
Twitter – x.com/1ovthafew
Website – hibernate.org

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