Leaders In Payments and FinTech - The EDC Podcast

S03 Ep08: Why orchestration is no longer optional, with John Lunn, CEO of Gr4vy

Oct 21, 2025

In this discussion, John Lunn, CEO of Gr4vy and a payments veteran, dives deep into the world of payment orchestration. He defines its critical role in providing merchants with flexibility beyond traditional gateways. John shares insights about tokenization benefits, the importance of adapting to global payment rails, and how orchestration can transform payments into a competitive advantage. He also highlights future trends like stablecoins and agentic commerce, while addressing merchant concerns about fraud and chargebacks.

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INSIGHT

Orchestration Is The Middleware Router

Payment orchestration is a middleware router that centralizes integrations across multiple payment providers.
It gives merchants flexibility and control over their payment infrastructure without rebuilding custom code.

ADVICE

Adopt Orchestration To Free Engineering Time

Do adopt an orchestration platform so payments teams stop needing engineering time for every change.
Use orchestration to add gateways, payment options, or network tokens without long integrations.

INSIGHT

Redundancy Turns Into Negotiating Power

Orchestration delivers redundancy and fast failover to avoid expensive outages.
Switching PSPs becomes minutes instead of months, improving commercial leverage.

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In this episode, Davide Villa speaks with John Lunn, CEO of Gr4vy, about the transformative role of payment orchestration in the payments industry. They discuss the definition of payment orchestration, its benefits for merchants, and the importance of flexibility in payment systems. John shares insights on founding Gravy to address industry frustrations, the significance of tokenization, and the critiques surrounding payment orchestration. The conversation also explores future trends such as stable coins and agentic commerce, emphasizing the evolving role of payments in business.

Show Notes:

In this episode, Davide Villa of Edgar, Dunn & Company talks with John Lunn, CEO and founder of Gr4vy, about how payment orchestration is redefining the way merchants manage payments. From redundancy and scalability to tokenization and network tokens, John explains why orchestration is no longer just an optimization tool but a critical part of merchants’ infrastructure.

They also explore how global payment rails—from Brazil’s Pix to India’s UPI—are reshaping commerce, and why orchestration enables merchants to adapt quickly, test new methods, and negotiate better terms with PSPs. John shares how orchestration eliminates single points of failure, boosts flexibility, and even turns payments into a competitive advantage.

Join us as we explore how orchestration, new payment models, and emerging technologies like stablecoins and agentic commerce are transforming financial services worldwide.

In this episode:

Why payment orchestration is becoming essential for merchants
How orchestration boosts redundancy, scalability, and flexibility
The role of tokenization and network tokens in reducing fraud and improving customer experience
How merchants can negotiate better PSP terms with orchestration
The cost savings of routing debit payments to the right networks
Why payments can be a competitive advantage, not just a utility
The rise of new payment rails like Pix, UPI, and FedNow
How orchestration enables merchants to test and switch payment methods quickly
The potential of stablecoins in remittances and high-value transactions
Opportunities and risks of agentic commerce powered by AI agents

Resources:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/johnclunn

Website: https://gr4vy.com