Peter Godfrey-Smith, a philosophy professor and bestselling author, discusses the intricate relationship between consciousness, wild nature, and the moral dilemmas of human intervention. He dives into why octopuses and dolphins haven't created complex civilizations despite their intelligence. The conversation also explores animal ethics, the struggle for existence in the wild, and the value of cultural knowledge in human advancement. Godfrey-Smith highlights how historical events shape evolution, questioning our understanding of life's complexities.
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insights INSIGHT
Value of Wild Nature
Peter Godfrey-Smith advocates for habitat preservation and rewilding.
He believes wild nature possesses inherent value, encompassing both positive and negative experiences.
insights INSIGHT
Redemptive Experiences
Godfrey-Smith argues against a purely utilitarian view of animal welfare.
He suggests that achievements and experiences can redeem difficult periods in an animal's life.
insights INSIGHT
Preferable Deaths
Both Luisa Rodriguez and Godfrey-Smith agree on prioritizing some deaths over others.
They would choose a quick, painless death over one from a painful disease.
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In 'Your Inner Fish,' Neil Shubin explores the evolutionary history of the human body by examining fossils and DNA. He reveals how human features, such as hands and heads, have origins in ancient fish and other organisms. This book offers a fascinating journey through millions of years of biological development, highlighting the shared genetic and anatomical heritage between humans and other species.
Wonderful Life
The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History
Stephen Jay Gould
In *Wonderful Life*, Stephen Jay Gould delves into the Cambrian period's explosion of life forms, using the Burgess Shale as a case study to argue that evolution is shaped by contingency rather than a linear progression towards complexity. He highlights the diversity of ancient life and how chance events influenced the survival of certain species over others.
The Secret of Our Success
Jonathan Yen
Joseph Henrich
In 'The Secret of Our Success', Joseph Henrich presents a provocative alternative to the standard narrative about human evolution. He argues that the key to human success is not our individual intelligence, but our ability to form collective brains that store and transmit vast amounts of cultural knowledge. Henrich draws on findings from anthropology, linguistics, behavioral economics, psychology, and evolutionary biology to demonstrate how culture and genes interact in a unique evolutionary process that drives human innovation and progress. The book challenges traditional views of evolution and highlights the importance of social and cultural factors in shaping human behavior and achievements.
Other Minds
The Octopus, the Sea, and the Deep Origins of Consciousness
Peter Godfrey-Smith
In this book, Peter Godfrey-Smith delves into the evolution of intelligence and consciousness, particularly in cephalopods such as octopuses and cuttlefish. He argues that these creatures represent an independent experiment in the evolution of large brains and complex behavior, distinct from the evolutionary paths of vertebrates. Godfrey-Smith draws on his own scuba-diving experiences and the latest scientific research to explore how these animals' unique neural structures, including decentralized brain-like systems in their arms, enable their remarkable intelligence and adaptability. The book also reflects on the broader implications for understanding human consciousness and the nature of subjective experience[1][2][5].
"In the human case, it would be mistaken to give a kind of hour-by-hour accounting. You know, 'I had +4 level of experience for this hour, then I had -2 for the next hour, and then I had -1' — and you sort of sum to try to work out the total… And I came to think that something like that will be applicable in some of the animal cases as well… There are achievements, there are experiences, there are things that can be done in the face of difficulty that might be seen as having the same kind of redemptive role, as casting into a different light the difficult events that led up to it.
"The example I use is watching some birds successfully raising some young, fighting off a couple of rather aggressive parrots of another species that wanted to fight them, prevailing against difficult odds — and doing so in a way that was so wholly successful. It seemed to me that if you wanted to do an accounting of how things had gone for those birds, you would not want to do the naive thing of just counting up difficult and less-difficult hours. There’s something special about what’s achieved at the end of that process." —Peter Godfrey-Smith
Why octopuses and dolphins haven’t developed complex civilisation despite their intelligence.
How the role of culture has been crucial in enabling human technological progress.
Why Peter thinks the evolutionary transition from sea to land was key to enabling human-like intelligence — and why we should expect to see that in extraterrestrial life too.
Whether Peter thinks wild animals’ lives are, on balance, good or bad, and when, if ever, we should intervene in their lives.
Whether we can and should avoid death by uploading human minds.
And plenty more.
Chapters:
Cold open (00:00:00)
Luisa's intro (00:00:57)
The interview begins (00:02:12)
Wild animal suffering and rewilding (00:04:09)
Thinking about death (00:32:50)
Uploads of ourselves (00:38:04)
Culture and how minds make things happen (00:54:05)
Challenges for water-based animals (01:01:37)
The importance of sea-to-land transitions in animal life (01:10:09)
Luisa's outro (01:23:43)
Producer: Keiran Harris Audio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong Content editing: Luisa Rodriguez, Katy Moore, and Keiran Harris Transcriptions: Katy Moore
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