#203 – Peter Godfrey-Smith on interfering with wild nature, accepting death, and the origin of complex civilisation
Oct 3, 2024
auto_awesome
Peter Godfrey-Smith, a philosophy professor and bestselling author, discusses the intricate relationship between consciousness, wild nature, and the moral dilemmas of human intervention. He dives into why octopuses and dolphins haven't created complex civilizations despite their intelligence. The conversation also explores animal ethics, the struggle for existence in the wild, and the value of cultural knowledge in human advancement. Godfrey-Smith highlights how historical events shape evolution, questioning our understanding of life's complexities.
The cyclical nature of life encourages acceptance of mortality, highlighting individual existence as a transient yet meaningful part of a larger ecosystem.
Ethical considerations of wild animal welfare reveal a balance between acknowledging suffering and advocating for habitat preservation, emphasizing the richness of nature's experiences.
Cultural learning, rather than mere intelligence, is essential for human technological advancement, distinguishing us from other intelligent but culturally limited species like octopuses.
Deep dives
The Role of Existence and Non-Existence
The discussion revolves around the acceptance of life and death as natural parts of existence. The speaker expresses contentment with the cyclical nature of life, where beings come into and out of existence, suggesting that this process is integral to the overall system of life on Earth. There is an exploration of the philosophical perspective that individuals occupy 'slots' in the ecosystem that will eventually be filled by others. This viewpoint fosters a sense of peace about mortality, viewing one’s life as a transient, yet meaningful, component of a larger ecological narrative.
Ethics of Wild Animal Welfare
The podcast delves into the ethics surrounding the welfare of wild animals, particularly addressing the suffering that occurs in nature. The speaker grapples with whether the existence of wild animals is beneficial or harmful, acknowledging the challenges of assessing their quality of life amidst suffering and predation. Despite recognizing the suffering animals endure, the speaker ultimately supports habitat preservation and rewilding, arguing for the richness of wild experiences that often get overlooked. This suggests a belief that while negative experiences exist, they can coexist with meaningful, positive moments in the lives of these creatures.
Cultural Evolution and Human Intelligence
A critical aspect of the conversation is the idea that human technological advancement is not merely the result of intelligence, but rather a product of culture. The speaker emphasizes the significance of cultural learning—where knowledge and behaviors are passed down generations—allowing communities to thrive and adapt more effectively than individuals relying solely on their intelligence. This perspective helps differentiate humans from other intelligent species, like octopuses, which may possess intelligence but lack the capacity for cultural transmission. The narrative shifts the focus from individual cognitive ability to the collective wisdom that communities accrue through shared experiences.
Nature of Consciousness and AI
The podcast touches upon the complexities of consciousness, particularly in relation to artificial intelligence. The speaker argues that consciousness arises from intricate biological processes present in living organisms and raises skepticism about the feasibility of creating truly sentient digital minds. This skepticism stems from a belief that while current technology can replicate some functions of the human brain, the full spectrum of subconscious and conscious experiences is rooted in biological reality. Therefore, it's posited that achieving artificial consciousness would require a fundamentally different understanding of what consciousness entails.
The Journey from Sea to Land and Extraterrestrial Life
The transition of life from sea to land serves as a focal point, highlighting the evolutionary processes that have shaped intelligent life. The speaker asserts that this transition is significant in understanding the development of complex behaviors and cultures among terrestrial animals and that similar processes may be expected on other planets. The discussion expands to the implications of oxygen-producing photosynthesis, which catalyzed life’s diversity and complexity on Earth, suggesting that similar biological breakthroughs could drive evolution elsewhere. This exploration not only connects the dots within Earth's history but also speculates on the potential for intelligent life beyond our planet.
"In the human case, it would be mistaken to give a kind of hour-by-hour accounting. You know, 'I had +4 level of experience for this hour, then I had -2 for the next hour, and then I had -1' — and you sort of sum to try to work out the total… And I came to think that something like that will be applicable in some of the animal cases as well… There are achievements, there are experiences, there are things that can be done in the face of difficulty that might be seen as having the same kind of redemptive role, as casting into a different light the difficult events that led up to it.
"The example I use is watching some birds successfully raising some young, fighting off a couple of rather aggressive parrots of another species that wanted to fight them, prevailing against difficult odds — and doing so in a way that was so wholly successful. It seemed to me that if you wanted to do an accounting of how things had gone for those birds, you would not want to do the naive thing of just counting up difficult and less-difficult hours. There’s something special about what’s achieved at the end of that process." —Peter Godfrey-Smith
Why octopuses and dolphins haven’t developed complex civilisation despite their intelligence.
How the role of culture has been crucial in enabling human technological progress.
Why Peter thinks the evolutionary transition from sea to land was key to enabling human-like intelligence — and why we should expect to see that in extraterrestrial life too.
Whether Peter thinks wild animals’ lives are, on balance, good or bad, and when, if ever, we should intervene in their lives.
Whether we can and should avoid death by uploading human minds.
And plenty more.
Chapters:
Cold open (00:00:00)
Luisa's intro (00:00:57)
The interview begins (00:02:12)
Wild animal suffering and rewilding (00:04:09)
Thinking about death (00:32:50)
Uploads of ourselves (00:38:04)
Culture and how minds make things happen (00:54:05)
Challenges for water-based animals (01:01:37)
The importance of sea-to-land transitions in animal life (01:10:09)
Luisa's outro (01:23:43)
Producer: Keiran Harris Audio engineering: Ben Cordell, Milo McGuire, Simon Monsour, and Dominic Armstrong Content editing: Luisa Rodriguez, Katy Moore, and Keiran Harris Transcriptions: Katy Moore
Remember Everything You Learn from Podcasts
Save insights instantly, chat with episodes, and build lasting knowledge - all powered by AI.
