Nate Hagens and economist and anthropologist Lisi Krall discuss the evolutionary origins of our current systemic predicament, including surplus and ultrasociality. They delve into the concept of the economic superorganism, its connection to capitalism and hierarchy, and the challenges of de-growth. They also explore the role of governance, collective awareness, and the interplay of ideology and biology. The conversation contemplates our place on Earth and the need to understand the problem at hand in evolutionary terms.
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Quick takeaways
The global economic system, including capitalism, is deeply interconnected with the agricultural revolution, and recognizing the expansionary dynamic and inequalities inherent in the system is crucial for creating a sustainable future.
The coevolution of humans and grain agriculture, similar to social insects, plays a significant role in the expansionary dynamics, interdependence, and surplus generation associated with agricultural systems.
Capitalism is an expansionary economic system intertwined with agricultural surplus production, leading to hierarchical structures and inequalities, and it is imperative to constantly expand surplus production.
Deep dives
Understanding the Agricultural Revolution's Impact on the Global Energy-Hungry System
The podcast episode discusses the significance of the agricultural revolution in shaping the foundations of today's energy-hungry global system. It explores how the expansionary nature of the economy, the deep duality between humans and the biophysical world, and the looming biophysical limits are central aspects of understanding the current state of our society. The discussion emphasizes that the global economic system, including capitalism, is deeply interconnected with the agricultural revolution. It highlights the need to recognize the expansionary dynamic, inequalities, and interdependence inherent in the system, and the urgent necessity to address biophysical limits to create a sustainable future.
Exploring the Evolution of Humans and Agricultural Systems
The podcast delves into the evolution of humans in relation to the emergence of agricultural systems. It draws parallels between human societies and social insects, like ants and termites, both of which practice agriculture. The coevolution of humans and annual grains, particularly the expansionary dynamics, interdependence, and surplus generation associated with grain agriculture, are emphasized. The conversation highlights the role of an elaborate division of labor and the subsequent development of institutions and technologies within agricultural systems. It underscores how humans and ants share a commonality in evolved sociality and the impact it has on economic systems.
The Development of Capitalism as a Legacy of the Agricultural Revolution
The podcast reveals the relationship between the agricultural revolution and the subsequent development of capitalism. It emphasizes that capitalism is an expansionary economic system intertwined with agricultural surplus production. The conversation explores how surplus generation within grain agriculture led to the hierarchical structures and inequalities characteristic of capitalist systems. It underscores the expansionary nature of capitalism, its interdependence, and the imperative to constantly expand surplus production. It notes that while fossil fuels have influenced the dynamics of capitalism, the system of profit and the level of surplus existed before the utilization of fossil fuels.
Confronting the Dialectical Tension between an Expanding Economy and Biophysical Limits
The podcast delves into the complex tension between an expanding economy and the biophysical limits we face. It emphasizes that the current economic system relies on growth and profit and expresses a duality and disconnection between humans and the biophysical world. The discussion highlights the urgency of recognizing that the expansionary dynamics of our economic system are incompatible with the biophysical limits we confront, such as climate change and species extinction. It underscores the need to move toward an ecological species and embrace limits, as well as to challenge existing ideologies that justify and perpetuate the current system of profit and growth.
Embracing Awareness, Compassion, and Strategic Action
The podcast encourages individuals to embrace awareness and engage with the contradictions and complexities of our current economic superorganism. It emphasizes the importance of confronting the real challenges we face, such as biophysical limits and the need for a lower energy future. The discussion highlights the significance of compassion, understanding our place in the world, and seeking enlightenment while avoiding despair. It encourages individuals to make choices and take action based on a deep understanding of the systemic issues we face and to engage in localized community-oriented movements. It concludes with a call to embrace the challenge of our historical moment and work towards a sustainable and ecologically conscious future.
On this episode, ‘Superorganisms’ converge as Nate is joined by economist and anthropologist Lisi Krall to discuss the evolutionary origins of our current systemic predicament. Starting with the Agricultural Revolution, the evolutionary conditions of surplus and ultrasociality have combined to shape the way humans interact with their environment, ultimately leading to our current out of control global economy. Is this global system an inevitable emergent phenomenon of the human condition? Does surplus inherently breed inequality and hierarchy, such as the current capitalist system? What type of social evolution will we experience as we meet the limits of an expansionary system and move towards a Great Simplification?
About Lisi Krall
Lisi Krall is a professor of economics at State University of New York, Cortland. Dr. Krall engages a heterodox and transdisciplinary approach to understanding economic systems, their etiology, structure, dynamic, and the relationship between humans and the more-than-human world that is contextualized through them. She incorporates evolutionary biology, anthropology, history, heterodox economics, and deep materialism to understand how we arrived at this paradoxical moment where humans appear trapped in an economic system that functions as if it is not of this Earth at the same time it is clearly a material system. Her latest book, Bitter Harvest: An Inquiry into the War Between Economy and Earth, explores the formation and evolution of the economic system (the economic superorganism) that took hold beginning with the cultivation of annual grains and is now embodied in global capitalism.
For Show Notes and more: https://www.thegreatsimplification.com/episode/86-lisi-krall