#65 Play & Meaningful Uncertainty: Another Active Inference with Julian Kiverstein, senior researcher at Amsterdam UMC

Jul 16, 2025

Julian Kiverstein, a senior professor at Amsterdam Medical, discusses the vital role of play in human flourishing. He argues that play helps individuals break free from rigid patterns and promotes mental health by creating a safe environment for exploration. The conversation touches on the paradox of risk and safety in play, how this can combat issues like addiction and OCD, and the importance of curiosity in adult life. Kiverstein also connects play to creativity and personal growth, advocating for a playful mindset in both personal and professional spheres.

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INSIGHT

Play Cultivates Growth Safely

Play helps us grow by challenging habits while feeling safe enough to explore new possibilities.
Children seek a "sweet spot" in play where challenges are manageable and promote learning.

INSIGHT

Play as Intrinsic Curiosity

Play is an intrinsically motivating activity valued for itself, not just outcomes.
It resolves uncertainty by turning unpredictable situations into predictable, learnable ones, driving curiosity.

INSIGHT

Play Disrupts Mental Rigidity

Mental illness often involves intolerance of uncertainty and rigid habitual patterns.
Play disrupts these rigid states by fostering manageable uncertainty and flexibility.

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Julian Kiverstein is a senior professor at Amsterdam Medical. He's co-authored various papers about the importance of play as it relates to predictive processing, active learning, intimacy and embodied cognition.

Sometimes we get stuck in attractor states. Play is a form of disruption that may be able to help us get unstuck. Play seems to be far from algorithmic.

This conversation explores how playfulness is crucial for meaning and flourishing, and how building safe spaces for play (such as museums and parks) are crucial for healthy societies.

Active inference and predictive processing are discussed as tools that might help us better model and understand this ‘sweet spot’ towards finding ways to create spaces where we can explore uncertainty and risk without danger.

Drawing from his extensive work in phenomenology, embodied cognition, and predictive processing, Julian offers fresh perspectives on how play connects to mental health and wellbeing. Some key ideas from this episode:

• Play requires safety yet involves taking risks—a paradoxical relationship that enables personal growth
• Adults often lose the curious openness of childhood as we become fixated on seriousness and habitual patterns
• Love shares qualities with play as both involve transcendence beyond the self and openness to fresh experiences
• Active inference and predictive processing provide frameworks for understanding both mental illness and flourishing
• Breaking out of "attractor states" or fixed patterns requires disruption that playful activities can provide
• Creating safe spaces for play becomes essential for development, creativity, and meaning-making

00:00 The Role of Play in Well-being
01:50 Introduction to Love and Philosophy
02:45 Exploring Active Inference and Predictive Processing
05:24 The Importance of Play in Development
09:58 Julian's Journey into Mind Studies
12:11 Understanding Mental Illness through Predictive Processing
21:57 The Concept of Play and Its Cognitive Benefits
30:27 Intrinsic Motivation and the Value of Play
44:12 Play as a Disruptive Force in Mental Health
45:09 Understanding Mental Illness and Uncertainty
46:13 The Role of Play in Mental Health
47:38 Creating Safe Spaces for Emotional Regulation
49:05 Exploration vs. Exploitation in Learning
52:03 The Importance of Play in Adulthood
53:35 Art, Literature, and Emotional Engagement
56:55 The Need for Play in Academia
01:20:50 Balancing Exploration and Familiarity
01:23:37 Final Thoughts on Play and Well-being

Play in Predictive Minds

Intimate Places: Playgrounds for self-exploration

Playfulness and the meaningful life with Mark Miller

More of Julian's papers

Stuart Brown and the Institute of Play

JK and Darius Active Inference Institute

Harry Heft Conversation

Karl Friston Conversation

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