Center for REALTOR® Development 117: Livable Communities for the 50-Plus Population with Rodney Harrell, PhD: Part 2
Welcome to NAR's Center for REALTOR® Development podcast. I'm Monica Neubauer, your host. We welcome back to the show Dr. Rodney Harrell from the AARP. In our last episode, we discussed the AARP Livability Index™ and what is important to our mature buyers and sellers. Dr. Harrell is also a policy specialist, so that's what we're going to focus on today. I love a little government and advocacy things going on! Welcome back!
Rodney Harrell, PhD, is the Vice President of Family, Home, and Community at AARP, where he leads national work on housing, livable communities, and aging in place. He created the AARP Livability Index™, guiding how we evaluate and design neighborhoods that truly work. With a PhD in Urban Planning from the University of Maryland and a deep background in public policy and community development, Dr. Harrell brings data-driven actionable insights on how real estate intersects with longevity, lifestyle, and liveability.
[:42] We welcome back to the show Dr. Rodney Harrell from the AARP. In our last episode, we discussed the AARP Livability Index™ and what is important to our mature buyers and sellers. Dr. Harrell is also a policy specialist, so that's what we're going to focus on today. Welcome back!
[1:08] Monica introduces Dr. Harrell and describes his role with the AARP and his focus on livable communities for mature adults and future mature adults. Dr. Harrell has a PhD in Urban Planning and a deep background in public policy and community development.
[1:47] As REALTORS®, we work primarily with people who are buying and selling properties. The nuances of policy may not feel like they directly affect us… until they do! When we do run up against these things, it can be a frustrating wakeup call. By the time we know about it, it may be hard to fix.
[2:37] Dr. Harrell says the AARP's Future of Housing initiative considers a range of trends that are impacting needs. One trend is that the population is aging faster than was expected, with 10K people turning 65 every day.
[2:58] Since we have not built the types of housing in our communities that support aging, we don't have a lot of housing that meets people's needs at any age and any level of physical ability.
[3:09] Simultaneously, we just don't have enough supply of housing. As a country, we are short many millions of units of housing. We don't have enough housing, and housing is too expensive.
[3:40] Dr. Harrell notes that we don't have enough housing at different price points. If we get housing that will meet our needs as we age, and it is affordable, is it in the right place? You might not find housing that meets your needs, that you can afford, and that is where you want it to be.
[4:12] Housing that has the accessibility features that people might need as they're aging, housing that's affordable, and housing in the right location that meets all our other needs are the three pieces of the puzzle to create the housing that aging adults need.
[4:48] Dr. Harrell discusses zoning. Zoning is a huge barrier. It can prevent communities from having the types of housing options that folks need. Communities want to create more flexibility in their neighborhoods.
[5:20] The AARP Livability Index™ looks at neighborhoods with options other than a single-family home. Roughly 80% of the neighborhoods in the country only have single-family zoning and nothing else. That means there aren't a lot of options in those places. That's a huge barrier.
[5:43] Zoning is just an early step in the process. There are additional barriers in the process of building some of the housing we need, which is part of the reason we have a supply shortage.
[6:06] Monica has been looking at government and zoning. Going through the whole process with a development community can take years. If people make decisions based on current needs and not future needs, they may miss something.
[6:31] Dr. Harrell says that's why his team at the AARP Public Policy Institute pulled together this Future of Housing initiative. Thinking ahead is required. If you want to buy in a neighborhood, that neighborhood needs to have the housing options that you need.
[7:19] It's required to have a long-term thought process when it comes to our housing community choices in this country. Problems that we have today come from not having a long-term approach in the past, and will continue to hurt us if we don't have a long-term outlook for the future.
[8:11] One of the challenges with single-family housing zoning across the country is that it prevents people from having some of the options that might work for them. Dr. Harrell loves Accessory Dwelling Units (ADUs). He calls them the Swiss Army Knife of policy solutions.
[8:32] You don't need to completely change a neighborhood to allow ADUs. You don't have to build in a green space that might not work for folks.
[8:41] In the neighborhoods where people already are and want to be, we can create more housing options by making it easier to build a garage apartment, an apartment in the backyard, or an attached apartment; all the different kinds of housing that are under the label of ADU.
[9:02] Dr. Harrell said we've seen that explode over the last few years. People are looking more for those solutions. He loves that you have control over your property to make this home that may work for you for a while, work better for you in the future with a one-level ADU in the backyard.
[9:32] Maybe you need a place to help take care of an aging relative. Maybe you're the aging relative in the house and want to have somebody in an ADU who can help take care of you. Maybe you need to build one because you want to have some more income coming in.
[9:51] You can do so many things by giving homeowners the ability to do what they need to with their property to make it work for them. ADUs are a big way to do that.
[10:03] Monica lives in a newer neighborhood, and the lots are too small to support a backyard unit. Monica loves the uses Dr. Harrell described for an ADU. If you have an option to rent out a portion of your house or a second dwelling on your property, that can be huge.
[10:43] Dr. Harrell says that even with small lots, there may be ADU options. We have too many people who are limited in housing choices. We don't need to have all things everywhere in this country, but the more we have of these options we're going to talk about, the better off we all are.
[11:25] Dr. Harrell says it may take multiple bites of the apple. It may be baby steps before we run. Almost every community can add more options in and the more options we have, the better off people will be.
[11:38] The community Monica lives in, South of Nashville, is "growing, growing, growing." Unfortunately, it has become quite expensive. The developers are recognizing that people want to have some commercial properties near them. They want to have some walkability.
[12:01] Monica says a lot of "New Urbanism" communities are popping up in various parts of the county.
[12:10] Dr. Harrell sees different varieties of that in other places around the U.S., whether it's transit-oriented development (TOD) or the more general category of mixed-use development. Communities that only have homes on large lots can be limiting and isolating.
[12:46] Dr. Harrell has talked to so many people whose dream house several decades ago was a large house on a cul-de-sac, but who are now isolated there, and have no other option in their community, and they want to be able to walk to the shop or to their religious institution.
[13:04] We're forcing people to adapt to the limited options that are available to them, instead of providing the options that people want.
[13:17] There's a pent-up demand for these mixed-use communities and neighborhoods where you can get to different things that you might want to be near, not thinking of your home and family as isolated, but as part of a community.
[13:29] Monica suggests that if they're isolated and have a large lot, that goes back to the ADU conversation. That would be a prime neighborhood to consider for that zoning.
[13:49] Dr. Harrell highlights missing middle housing, between single-family homes and high-rises. These can be duplexes, triplexes, townhouses, courtyard apartments, or cottage housing grouped on small lots.
[14:50] All of these options may have been illegal according to the limited single-family zoning of your community. This frustrates urban planners and potential homeowners because they can't get into a community or find a home that works for them.
[15:08] Making it easier to build different types of homes in a larger community allows folks to have what they need. Dr. Harrell sees it as part of a range of solutions that help people become better able to find housing that might work for them.
[15:22] Monica mentions community investment programs that help people get into houses.
[15:35] Monica likes the concept of the missing middle. The housing is mid-sized, and it can be priced for middle-income families. "Affordable" has become nebulous and hard to define.
[16:10] Dr. Harrell says we need all types of housing, whether it's subsidized housing or smaller units; we need everything in this country. This is a zoning-related solution that communities can do, alongside other policy solutions that might bring in housing, as well.
[16:59] Dr. Harrell mentions universal design, visitability, or inclusive design. The fact that our homes don't necessarily fit our needs as we age is a problem in this country.
[17:14] A Harvard Joint Center study, a few years ago, said that less than 1% of homes had a set of features that supported aging. Things like zero-step entrances, wide doorways, a bathroom on the first floor, and a bedroom on the first floor. Most homes don't meet our needs.
[17:40] The study said that nearly 50% of homes had one of those features, so we're not starting from nowhere. It would be better for us if we had more homes that met our needs.
[17:52] The AARP has a HomeFit Model Ordinance, a way that states and communities can make it easier to build homes that have those features. There are lots of policy steps that can be made to make sure that homes have those features that we need.
[18:14] The intent is to build homes with more universal design features to make our homes work for people of all ages and all abilities. The features work for someone who might be aging, has a physical disability, is a younger person with a stroller for children, or someone with a sports injury.
[18:47] Our homes are places not just for ourselves but for family, friends, and others. Housing that limits the ability of folks to visit us, or live with us, safely and happily, is a problem. We can create more options to build homes that have the features we need. That helps accessibility.
[19:12] Building homes, the ADUs, and the missing middle can help with more affordable options that can be in places where we need them. The universal design helps us make sure the homes themselves have the features that help support us, regardless of our ability or our age.
[19:40] Dr. Harrell says many folks in the industry, from real estate agents to affordable housing advocates, to AARP, and others, are in favor of getting more of these options into communities. The question is how to do it and what policy steps are needed.
[20:12] People may have some differences on how to get there. For all of these things, AARP has model acts. They have partnered with a lot of folks in the housing industry across the country on those models.
[20:26] Monica brings up the Not In My Back Yard (NIMBY) factor. When people first hear something, it's easy to reject it because we don't like change. We need to be educated on what the results are, for ourselves and the community, for those things. What does Dr. Harrell suggest?
[21:33] Dr. Harrell provides two website addresses: One is AARP.org/homeandcommunity. At the Home and Community hub, there are resources designed for real estate agents and others, including homebuyers, to see what has worked for people with challenges similar to yours.
[22:14] Dr. Harrell addresses NIMBYism by telling people the option they're opposing might work for them in the future, a friend of theirs, or a relative or neighbor that might need an option like it, someday. Seeing themselves in these options speaks to a lot of folks.
[22:45] Dr. Harrell has spoken to people who opposed these options years ago, and who thought their situation would never change, but it has, and now they're stuck, because their community is still not zoned for them. Personal stories are important for changing attitudes.
[23:32] Dr. Harrell shares an account of a family friend who lost income during COVID-19 and needed a new place. ADUs were not zoned in his community, and the subsidized housing waiting list was full. After a year and a half, he found something in the next county. He had few options.
[24:36] Dr. Harrell's mother would have built an ADU for the friend in her yard if Zoning policies had allowed it, and everybody would have been happy. Examples like this start to change hearts and minds.
[25:05] Dr. Harrell doesn't expect to convince everyone that all these housing options are good ideas. He just wants to convince enough people in more communities so that we can have these options.
[25:22] The more people who see the kinds of videos and information he's talking about on the AARP.org/homeandcommunity website, the more those people might be able to make a change.
[25:33] For policy-minded people and community leaders, look at the AARP.org/livable website, a hub of resources for community leaders to do all the things we've talked about.
[25:46] These two AARP websites, one for homeowners and one for community leaders, help you with the information you need in your home and in your community.
[26:03] Monica says, This AARP website needs to be a regular resource in our bookmarks! A lot is going on there. Thank you!
[26:12] Monica refers to NAR's RPAC and Advocacy Notifications that REALTORS® can sign up to be a part of and receive messages about urgent policy advocacy needs.
[26:39] Dr. Harrell says you can get involved with AARP by going to AARP.org and logging in. Then you can choose to receive notifications on a range of AARP issues, including housing and community work, travel, and discounts.
[27:16] The AARP.org/livable website has a Livable Newsletter that goes out often and is very popular. Hear about things as they come out. The HomeFit Model Ordinance just came out a few weeks ago. That was featured in a newsletter issue.
[27:32] Dr. Harrell says go to AARP.org and find some great information that might be useful for you or for your clients.
[27:41] Monica says one of the things that has stuck out through our conversation is that AARP's mission is to help people when they grow older, but we are seeing some of the same housing needs with young people: smaller units and affordable units. Everybody needs this information.
[28:06] AARP has information for all issues, for all REALTORS® to use for all clients in some form.
[28:18] Dr. Harrell says, One of the issues here is that you can't change the housing in the country overnight. The issues that are impacting today's older adults are impacting tomorrow's older adults, who are younger people, as well.
[28:36] So we need to make these changes today, and then they can serve all of us. That's why we have a lifetime approach to housing. All the livable communities things we're talking about here really work for all ages.
[28:49] Dr. Harrell discusses an urban planner study of a couple of years ago about all the things people want in their communities: housing options, being near grocery stores, and parks.
[29:00] AARP did a survey when they were creating the Livability Index, about what older adults wanted. They wanted to be near parks, libraries, grocery stores, and some of the same things. That showed Sr. Harrell that we have things in common across the ages.
[29:14] Dr. Harrell says, "Think about what we can do to make our communities work for people of all ages, all income levels, and all physical abilities. That could be you, a family member, or a friend. So, does your community have what that person needs?"
[29:29] "The answer is, it probably could have more. And if that is the answer, then take some of the steps to make that happen."
[29:35] That is an awesome final word! Thank you so much, Dr. Rodney Harrell, from the AARP!
[29:41] This was such excellent information! Again, we just want to know what else is available in the world, and you have provided so much great information. If our listeners didn't hear our first conversation about the Livability Index, go back and listen to it.
[29:56] And, for our listeners, if you just want to expand your education generally on working with the over-50 population, start with AARP, but then, also, add the Senior Real Estate Specialist course from NAR and from the Center for REALTOR® Development.
[30:11] You can find live or online class opportunities at Learning.REALTOR. I've taught that class since 2008, and here's what people say: "Wow! I really didn't know what I didn't know!" It's such a valuable class.
[30:27] Thank you, listeners, for joining us! I'm Monica Neubauer for the Center for REALTOR® Development. And with all these new tools, go out there, talk to your clients, build some new handouts, send some new things, and then get involved and sell some houses!
Tweetables:
"Since we have not built the types of housing in our communities that support aging, we don't necessarily have a lot of housing that meets people's needs at any age and any level of physical ability. Simultaneously … we just don't have enough supply of housing." — Rodney Harrell, PhD
"You don't need to completely change a neighborhood. You don't have to build in a green space that might not work for folks. In the neighborhoods where people already are and already want to be, we can create more housing options." — Rodney Harrell, PhD
"Maybe you need a place to help take care of an aging relative. Maybe you're the aging relative in the house and want to have somebody in an ADU who can help take care of you. Maybe you need to build one to … have some more income coming in." — Rodney Harrell, PhD
"We have too many people who are limited in their housing choices. We don't need to have all things everywhere in this country, but the more we have of these options … the better off we all are." — Rodney Harrell, PhD
"Housing that limits the ability of folks to visit us, or to live with us, and safely and happily; it's a problem." — Rodney Harrell, PhD
"We need to make these changes today, and then they can serve all of us. That's why we have a lifetime approach to housing. All the livable communities things we're talking about here really work for all ages." — Rodney Harrell, PhD
Guest Links:
Rodney Harrell, PhD, Vice President, Family, Home and Community, AARP Public Policy Institute
Additional Links:
Learning.REALTOR — for NAR Online Education
Training4RE.com — List of Classroom Courses from NAR and its affiliates
CRD.REALTOR — List of all courses offered
Host Information:
Monica Neubauer
Speaker/Podcaster/REALTOR®
Monica's Facebook Page: Facebook.com/Monica.Neubauer
Instagram: Instagram.com/MonicaNeubauerSpeaks
Guest Bio
Rodney Harrell, PhD
Rodney Harrell, PhD, is Vice President, Family, Home, and Community (FHC) for AARP. In that role, he leads AARP Public Policy Institute's FHC team of experts on long-term services and supports, family caregiving, and livable communities, and he is an enterprise lead across AARP on housing and livable communities issues.
Dr. Harrell first joined AARP in 2008 and served as a senior advisor and as a director in the Public Policy Institute prior to becoming a vice president. He led the team that created the award-winning AARP Livability Index™ platform, which measures the livability of every neighborhood and community in the United States, and builds on his research on housing preferences, neighborhood choice, and community livability.
Before joining AARP, he was an independent research and evaluation consultant and a researcher and instructor at the University of Maryland. He has also been a CPAR Research Fellow at the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation and a Maryland Governor's Policy Fellow, leading programs in the Maryland Department of Housing and Community Development/Maryland Heritage Areas Authority.
Dr. Harrell is a member of the board of trustees of the National Building Museum, is chair of the Champions Council of the Coalition for Smarter Growth, and a board member and past chair of the Board of Visitors for the University of Maryland School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation. He formerly served as the vice chair-policy for the American Planning Association's Planning and the Black Community Division and has served on several local boards and committees in Maryland. He is a member of the Phi Beta Kappa and Phi Kappa Phi honor societies and was named to the initial class of Top Influencers in Aging for his work with AARP.
He holds a doctorate in urban planning and design from the University of Maryland, earned dual master's degrees in public affairs and urban planning from the School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University, and graduated summa cum laude from the honors program at Howard University with a bachelor's degree in political science.