Donald McNeil Jr., a 45-year New York Times veteran, comes on the pod to talk with Nancy and Sarah about … so much. The prompt was the recent NYT story, “We Were Badly Misled About the Event That Changed Our Lives.” As the paper of record tries to come correct on Covid, we wanted to hear from the science journalist, one of the first to tell Americans about this strange thing called the coronavirus. A self-declared “cranky old-school” reporter, McNeil landed the story of his career in 2020 and became part of a team that won the Pulitzer. But by 2021, he was gone, amid scandal and speculation. He talks about the bizarre kerfuffle that led to his resignation, mean girl dynamics at the paper, being misled by scientists, and what we do and don’t know about Covid-19’s origins.

As McNeil wrote in Wisdom of Plagues, "Covid coarsened us as a nation... The coarsening cracks our national skin. It makes us more vulnerable to infection."

Also discussed:

* Nancy tries not to fangirl. She fangirls anyway.

* “It’s a great newspaper but it’s a second-rate corporation, and its personnel stuff is particularly bad.”

* The walk McNeil took with James Bennet, a year after both getting booted from the Times, is a play we’d like to see

* “Looks like Don nailed it. Let’s not tell him.” (!!!!!!)

* NYT brass on their writing staff: “Widgets made here.”

* Young turks vs. cranky old-timers in union leadership

* The Daily Beast and Gawker do not cover themselves in glory

* "The Western focus on personal liberty above all can kill."

* The Mike Pesca of it all

* The hope that Covid might “unite us with a common enemy” like WWII. Awww, what happened instead? We turned on each other.

* “Ecstasy is a very good drug to get you talking”

* McNeil = not a fan of Jay Battacharya

* Thoughts on RFK!

Plus, McNeil explains what “hot-box” once meant, where he thinks H5-N1 is going, how cancel culture is like the French Revolution, and much more!

Does McNeil think Covid-19 was engineered in a virology lab or evolved in the wet market? Paid subscribers find out!