Episode 324: The Power of Differentiation with Tony Overbay

My friend and colleague Tony Overbay is back, and we’re unpacking one of the most transformative concepts in relational healing: differentiation.

At its core, differentiation is the ability to say, “This is who I am” and to stay rooted in your identity, beliefs, and emotions, even when others might pressure you to conform. It’s about holding onto yourself while staying connected to others, without relying on external validation to feel okay.

In this episode Tony and I talk about what differentiation really means, and how developing a solid sense of self—what Tony calls a “90% solid, 10% flexible” ratio—can change how you navigate conflict, boundaries, intimacy, and even sex. 

Differentiation isn’t something you do to fix the relationship. It’s something you do to help you hold onto or come home to yourself.

Here’s what else we discuss in this episode:

• The truth about interdependence and how it is the opposite of codependence (14:03)
• Tony breaks down the four points of balance in differentiation: building a solid sense of self, self-regulating emotions, managing reactivity, and sitting with discomfort for growth (17:22)
• The dangers of chasing external validation instead of developing self-worth from within (20:08)
• Why “constructing your crucible” is both hard and necessary (39:15)

Learn more about Tony Overbay: 

Tony Overbay is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified Mindful Habit Coach, and host of two award-winning mental health podcasts, The Virtual Couch and Waking Up to Narcissism, with over 12 million downloads across 150+ countries. He also co-hosts Love, ADHD with author Julie Lee, The Mind, The Mirror, and Me with his daughter Mackie, and Murder on the Couch, a true-crime-meets-therapy podcast with his daughter Sydney. Together, Tony, Mackie, and Sydney offer live weekly relationship advice to over 20,000 viewers across TikTok (@virtualcouch), Instagram (@virtual.couch) and YouTube.

Tony’s first book, He’s a Porn Addict, Now What?, was an Amazon best-seller in Sexual Health and Recovery and he currently has two books scheduled for a late 2025 release. One is based on his “Waking Up to Narcissism” podcast, and the other is on couples communication based on his “4 Pillars of a Connected Conversation,” which he developed while working with over 1500 couples over the past 20 years. He works with individuals and couples on issues including narcissistic traits, states, and tendencies, emotional immaturity, betrayal trauma, faith transitions, and addiction. He’s the creator of The Path Back, a faith-based online pornography recovery program, and offers courses on couples communication, parenting, and navigating faith journeys at tonyoverbay.com (https://tonyoverbay.com/).

Tony has four adult children, recently became a grandpa, and has been married to his high school sweetheart, Wendy, for 34 years. Before becoming a therapist, he worked as a software executive and wrote a humor column for nearly eight years. He’s an avid runner with over 100 marathons and ultramarathons under his belt, including a dozen 100-mile races.

Resources & Links:

Thank you to today’s podcast sponsor: Our Family WizardSubmit your questions here for possible inclusion in future Q&A podcast episodes Focused Strategy Sessions with KatePhoenix Rising: A Divorce Empowerment Collective Tony’s websiteTony on InstagramTony on TikTok

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Episode Link: https://kateanthony.com/podcast/episode-324-the-power-of-differentiation-with-tony-overbay/