The Burnt Toast Podcast [PREVIEW] Fatphobic Roller Coasters and Fatphobic Socks
You’re listening to Burnt Toast!
We are Virginia Sole-Smith and Corinne Fay, and it’s time for your July Indulgence Gospel!
We’ll be getting into:
Millennial vs Gen Z feelings about socks
How to even begin a closet reorganization project
What to do when the roller coaster doesn’t fit your body.
And so much more!
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Episode 153 Transcript
Corinne
So, I heard you have some pants to tell us about.
Virginia
I am wearing barrel pants.
Corinne
So trendy.
Virginia
It’s trendy, and for a woman who previously could only wear a skinny pant, this is a major growth moment for me. Is it not?
Corinne
It’s a major growth moment.
Virginia
These pants are very wide. They are truly barrel shaped.
Corinne
Wow. Yeah. Where did you get them?
Virginia
I got them from my Nuuly box. Nuuly is a clothing rental service, which I am trying out for the first time ever because four of my local friends do it and are obsessed. Like I can’t tell you how much of every gathering is talking about Nuuly boxes. It’s a little bit culty, I think? But I’m trying it out and I’ll probably write a longer essay about it. (Here’s a discount code for anyone who wants to try it out in the meantime!)
I have mixed reviews so far on how good they are in plus sizes. But I’m going to give it a few months, really get in there, and then report back. And the first win is definitely these Anthropologie barrel pants, which
also loved.
Do you have them, too? Or were you just think about getting them?
Corinne
No, I don’t have them. I’m unclear whether Anthropologie sizing works for me.
Virginia
Well, I will say these are the 1x, and they’re roomy.
Corinne
Are they zip fly or are they elastic waist?
Virginia
Elastic waist. And I’m wearing the 1x. They go up to 3x. And they’re pretty generously sized, other reviewers also said they ran large. I really enjoy them, but they do fall down after a few days of wearing as do all pants on me. And I was like, “Well, it’s great that I’m renting them because I can just have that experience.” I have them in the light blue right now.
Corinne
Rental seems like such a good option for stuff like that, where you want to try it out.
Virginia
I didn’t want to buy a whole pair of barrel pants when I didn’t even know how I felt about this trend. So trying it out.
I did want to ask a follow up question—you had talked both on the podcast and on
, about some Old Navy denim shorts you got. Are you still liking them?
Corinne
I’m still liking them. In fact, I bought another pair.
Virginia
Because I’ve been thinking about them and I was like, I need to find out how they’re holding up on multiple wears.
Corinne
They’re good. Okay, should we move on to socks chat?
Virginia
We really should because this is a burning question, which was sent in over Instagram.
What is your input on the whole millennial ankle versus Gen Z calf sock debate?
The reason I’m going to immediately throw this to Corinne is because when we were doing the Style Challenge with Dacy a few months ago and we were having extensive text threads about pants and shoes and all of the feelings and the Birkenstock skinny jeans fiasco we won’t speak of. And Corinne was like, “Guys, Gen Z has really different feelings about socks.” And then it was like everything I knew about socks was wrong.
Corinne
Basically there’s this thing where people say you can tell if someone is Gen Z or Millennial based on their socks.
Virginia
Because there would be no other way to tell the difference between me and a 27 year old.
Corinne
That would be the only way. Because Millennials like wearing no show socks. And Gen Zs think that is very uncool. And Gen Z thinks the cool socks are crew socks.
Virginia
I’m a little bit with them? I have always felt like no show socks are the absolute dorkiest of socks.
Corinne
Yeah, they’re embarrassing.
Virginia
You go to somebody’s shoes off household and then you have to walk around in your weird little no show socks, but they’re showing.
Corinne
I also never found them comfortable. I don’t think I ever found ones that actually didn’t fall down.
Virginia
They slip so weirdly! A little bit of them inevitably does show, but not enough to look purposeful.
Corinne
They’re really ugly. So I guess that’s where we land on the debate but for I, for a long time, have been wearing these socks from Shiny By Nature. And I love them. I don’t know if they could really be considered a crew sock? They’re more of a high ankle sock, maybe. But Shiny By Nature is doing some weird stuff. I kind of don’t want to keep buying from them. I’ve currently been buying crew socks to test out to see if I can find any cute ones that don’t leave an indentation in my calf. Because crew socks feel fatphobic. They never fit my calf right.
Virginia
They are anti-calf. And that is one of socks’ two jobs right? To cover your foot and also part of your calf?
Corinne
Do you have any socks you like?
Virginia
I am a millennial who has not been wearing socks as much as possible. At this time of year, I don’t wear socks because I am just wearing Birkenstocks all the time. And then what do even I wear in the winter?
Corinne
It does feel like the no show sock is part of the ankle/pants/shoe thing where you need to show your ankle because it’s the smallest part of your leg or something.
Virginia
Absolutely. I think it’s all bound up in that. And I do think that the Gen Z trend of the covered ankle is alternatively exploding that norm or reinforcing the thin ideal because you have to have such thin legs in order to wear a bulky sock and not make your leg look overall larger. And I don’t know which one it is.
Corinne
Or for it to not have the sock elastic be turning your leg into a little sausage.
Virginia
And cutting off circulation in your feet. So I think all the socks are fatphobic is what we’re saying. It’s a fatphobic category of clothing and yet also not wearing socks is also fatphobic. Because you’re showing your ankles.
Corinne
You really can’t win.
Virginia
I don’t know. Do we go back to Uggs? I don’t know where we go with this. This person wanted input. We’ve offered input, I guess. We’ve not offered direction.
Corinne
I saw a funny TikTok where someone was like, “Just wait till they have to deal with the crew sock tan lines.” Nothing could be less cool than crew sock tan lines.
Virginia
It’s so true.
Corinne
I’m trying to get into more crew socks. We’ll see.
Virginia
I mean, when I was a child of the 80s, did I love The Baby Sitters Club ice cream cone socks? Yes, I did. Did I wear my push down socks in turquoise and hot pink and magenta, all together? Absolutely. So I feel like this is in my DNA. This is something I can come back to. I’m excited for the potential of a crew sock with like, a little fun stripe of color. There’s a lot of places you can go.
Corinne
Okay, should we move on to the next question?
Virginia
Yes. I will read our next question.
Hi Virginia and Corinne,
I love Burnt Toast so much. It means the world to me to listen to smart, funny, thoughtful women talk about all the things that make life hard and beautiful about being fat.
I am somewhat new in my body liberation journey, actually very new in respect. But I’ve not been participating in active weight loss for about three years now. It felt good in so, so, so many ways, and I can’t tell you just how much intuitive sense it makes to not participate in a very clear cycle of oppression. And I’ve had some experiences fresh from the weekend that have made me feel uncomfortable about my path. I say uncomfortable because I don’t feel unsure or confused, just uncomfortable.
Since deciding to stop trying to shrink my body, my body has grown. I have bought the bigger clothes and in my day to day my fat body does all the things they want for the most part. And some things are harder, like tying my shoes. And with that I use it as an opportunity to explore my own ableism and discomfort.
This weekend, though, my mom (a very small person) and I wanted to ride our favorite ride at the fair together. I was nervous about fitting into it but thought maybe it will be okay. We got on and it was clear as the man tried so kindly to push the bar closed that it was not okay. I was panicking. But he was kind and I held on to the hope and my mom was trying hard to be supportive and I just wanted to cry out of frustration and pain and embarrassment. I contorted and he finally got it closed. And I rode the ride and I was in so much pain but I laughed with it and made it fun because I wanted so badly to be there with my mom. It makes me tear up now to write about it.
And then now the thoughts come. What am I giving up for this? I can’t ride the rides with my future children, with my mom, my brothers. What else can I not do because of this? And am I missing something in my newness of this experience? I want to love my body more but I know part of that is hoping it will get smaller. I guess I don’t know what my question is, just what to do when it feels like this?
Corinne
This is such a sad question.
Virginia
It’s so sad. It is so uncomfortable. I think we’re just sitting in the discomfort with you.
Corinne
This is a hard question to give advice to, right?
Virginia
I don’t think she’s even asking for advice.
Corinne
I mean, I think she’s asking what to do. And I don’t know that there is anything to do really. It just sucks.
Virginia
It just sucks. I’m glad her mom was supportive. I’m glad the man was kind. I wish they built amusement park rides to fit all bodies. It isn’t your body’s fault. That is the ride’s fault.
Corinne
Yeah, I think that is the thing to remember, just that it’s not your fault. And it has nothing to do with your body. It has to do with the system.
Virginia
So, I guess one thought I have is: Okay, maybe you can’t ride the amusement park rides with your future children. But what were you giving up when you were trying to make your body smaller? What was not available to you when you were in that place?
It’s different for all of us. But if you were continually preoccupied with dieting and exercising to a degree that was unsustainable and causing injury, like, all of that would also cost you. Your relationship with your future children will be more intact if you are healthy and happy and safe in your body than if you are shrinking yourself down. So you can’t twice a year ride on a roller coaster with them. I will never ride on a roller coaster with my children even if I do fit in the seats, because I hate them. And I think my kids are doing okay.
Corinne
I can’t say I’m dying to go on a roller coaster either, but I feel like the point isn’t the roller coaster.
Virginia
Yeah, if you love it, you love it. I’m not trying to take that away. But if you weigh up what you are missing out on now versus what you were missing out on in a smaller body? I think that’s worth looking at.
Corinne
Totally. I also just think: Is there a way you can replace that experience with something else? Like, maybe going to the fair to go on roller coasters isn’t fun anymore. But what would be fun to do that you can do? Maybe it’s going to the fair and watching the sheepdog trials or something. I don’t know, something else that doesn’t require you to squeeze yourself into an uncomfortable space.
Virginia
The sheep dog trials!
Corinne
That’s what I always like to do at the fair. I was also going to say like, getting fried doughl or something, but I didn’t really want to make it seem like the only thing fat people can do at the fair is eat.
Virginia
But I mean, fair food is amazing. And maybe that is something that is available to you now, that wasn’t when you were dieting. Going to the other things, the sheep dog trials.
I also want to shout out
who is Body Image With Bri on Instagram, and also writes a great Substack. She is a mental health counselor based in Jersey who does a lot of body image work. And she specifically works on body grief, and grieving things that have happened to your body. I think her writing is really beautiful about this. She’s talked a lot about changes in ability and mobility. That might be a great resource for you to check out.
Corinne
I think it is good to remember that we all have changes in ability at some point.
Virginia
It’s a hard moment when you realize something is harder than it used to be because we’re programmed to think body size is something I should fix or change. Like, I just realized I’m going to need a new glasses prescription because I’m like, wow, I really can’t see the TV again. But I don’t go through a judgment process about my prescription changing.
Corinne
You don’t immediately sign up for eyeball gym and eyeball diets.
Virginia
I mean, but when I’m like, “Wow, it’s a little harder to get off the floor than it used to be,” I think like, “Oh, that’s something I should be like actively trying to fix, and is weight loss the way to do that?”
Corinne
I will read the next question.
I went to the midwife this week and she told me it’s fine to lose weight while pregnant. Really? Obviously I don’t want to.
Virginia
I think you need a new midwife. I hate that for you and all people who get pregnant and are told that.
Okay, so I’m looking up a text from my awesome midwife, Danielle Stracci, here in the Hudson Valley. We’ve talked a lot about how she works with fat folks to help them understand they can have a normal pregnancy. There’s so much fear mongering that goes into the way we talk about weight and pregnancy, and I will link to other work I’ve done on that topic. And we also have an episode of the podcast coming up, that’s gonna go deeper.
But just top level, Danielle said, “Unfortunately BMI becomes part of the discussion, because that’s where the research is—but by far, it doesn’t steer the ship completely.” Her bottom line is no, there’s no evidence for “it’s great to lose weight while pregnant.” There’s no clearcut science on that. There’s a lot of nuance to the conversation about weight during pregnancy. And you deserve to be with a provider who is not going to push you in that direction.
Do you have anything to add?
Corinne
It’s unclear whether the provider told her she should lose weight or whether this person is losing weight and concerned about it, and the provider is just saying it’s fine.
Virginia
That’s a good point. Obviously a lot of folks, if they have intense morning sickness, do lose weight. And I think it’s reassuring to know that most of those people go on to have healthy babies. The thing about pregnancy is—I’m not a doctor, but having done it twice, I can confirm from lived experience. Your body is throwing you under the bus the whole time in order to keep the baby safe. So you’re going to feel terrible, but the baby is probably going to be okay in a lot of these situations.
But also: If you are so sick that you’re losing weight, I want your midwife actively trying to stabilize your nausea. And making a plan with you about what you can eat to get through the day because you do still need to eat and this is really challenging. How do we figure out what foods don’t trigger your nausea? A blanket “it’s okay if you’re losing a little weight during pregnancy,” is not helpful.
Corinne
I hope this person is able to find someone who feels more helpful.
Tips for organizing your closet when you fluctuate between a few sizes. I’m fine with changing size bodies change, but it makes my closet a mess.
Virginia
I mean, this is so real.
Corinne
Yes, it is so real.
Virginia
Corinne is getting ready to work on a big closet makeover! I just announced something that she maybe doesn’t actually want to do, but I’m trying to talk her into it!
Corinne
I do want to do it. Just in a few months, not a few days.
Virginia
Stay tuned in a few months for
closet coverage. We’re going to do a whole thing and I’m very excited. I love closet organization.
Corinne
Oh my God.
Virginia
I’m a really fun person.
Corinne
Well, I recently downloaded the app Lucky Sweater. Have you heard about this app? It’s an app where you can trade clothes.
Virginia
Oh, that’s so smart.
Corinne
Basically, the way it works is, you upload stuff that you’re wanting to trade. And then you can message with people about trading. But where are you putting the stuff that you want to get rid of, but haven’t gotten rid of yet? I need to solve that problem in my head before I start. Because it’s not instantaneous—it’s the same with listing something on Poshmark or eBay. You list it, and then it’s sitting around somewhere for a week, waiting to see what happens.
Virginia
I think I would just get a big reusable shopping bag, like the kind of thing you’d buy your seltzer in, and have that sitting in a corner of my bedroom. All the stuff that I’m getting ready to swap or sell goes in there. I don’t think that should be in your closet. Because I think your closet should be clothes you’re actively wearing. So something like that should not be kept in your closet.
Corinne
No, I agree. But then you have a shopping bag full of clothes sitting in your house indefinitely.
Virginia
I tend to shove that in my mudroom, which I realized not everyone has a mudroom, but my mudroom is where there are library of books to be returned, that sweater I’m loaning a friend, the things that my children’s friends leave at our house that I have to return at the next play date.
Corinne
I keep my clothes that I’m not wearing this season, but I might want to again in the future, in a bin in my entry.
Virginia
Okay, but so for the organizing the closet, because I think the question is: Are you fluctuating sizes seasonally? Or are you fluctuating sizes over the course of a month, like related to your menstrual cycle?
So if it’s seasonal, like if you’re noticing I’m bigger than I was three months ago, I think for that what I would suggest is that every two to three months you do a closet clear out. Anything that’s not fitting you right now goes into like stashing in your basement or any kind of other storage space.
Corinne
I think the problem is also sometimes you don’t know. Like, sometimes you realize you need a different pant size and you buy new pants, and then it’s like, you don’t necessarily want to get rid of the old ones too fast because you might need them again.
Virginia
That’s why I would put them in a box in your basement, not donate them right away. But just have them somewhere else. Or, like, my closet has this really high up shelf that’s not convenient. I would never put stuff there I want to access daily, but I’ll often put a bag of stuff that I’m like, "this is not the right size right now,” but it’s close enough that if I need to get on the step stool, I can get it down again.
But I think it is committing to doing this process pretty regularly. If you’re fluctuating over the course of a month, like, “I know I need my period week pants,” or that kind of thing. Then I think I would maybe if you have space, I mean, obviously I don’t know what this person’s closet looks like. But can you group things together by size? So that the week that you’re in your bigger size, that’s all this shelf or this section of the closet. Smaller stuff is this section. What’s a nightmare is when you have all your pants stacked up together, but you know six of those pants only fit a certain way and six of those pants fit a different way but they’re all jumbled together. You need two piles of pants.
Corinne
That’s what I have. Everything jumbled together.
Virginia
Yes, I’ve seen your closet.
Corinne
I have like, whatever, three or four pairs of the same jeans. So I every time I’m like looking at the size tag.
Virginia
You need to shelve it by size.
Corinne
I might need to demolish my bathroom and turn it into a closet.
Virginia
I’m not against that.
Corinne
Who needs a toilet?
Virginia
There are different ways. We’re not designing your closet today!
Corinne
Okay, never mind.
Virginia
For this person, I think whether it’s a couple different bins, a couple different shelves, I think you do want to keep it organized by size so it makes sense. And because I also think you want the ability to just not look at the stuff that’s not working for you that day. Because it’s just going to stress you out. And not even necessarily from an anti-fat perspective. But just because it’s more noise. Like, I have to remember that those three pairs of pants don’t work today? I just don’t need it.
Corinne
How long would you wait before donating something that wasn’t fitting anymore?
Virginia
I mean, the rule of thumb you always hear is if you haven’t worn it in a year. I’m probably even a little more ruthless than that. Because I think I can usually tell. Sometimes it’s a combination where it doesn’t fit quite right and I know I never really reached for it. So if I had like two or three strikes against an item I’ll donate it faster. But otherwise, I’ll definitely put stuff in the basement. And then it’s like, if I look in that box, and I’ve forgotten all that, I’m going to let it go.
But I do this seasonally. So I won’t donate the winter stuff that wasn’t working when I pulled out my winter stuff. Because I don’t know where my body will be next winter. So I’ll probably evaluate when I pull out my winter clothes. It makes sense.
Corinne
When do you do the seasonal thing?
Virginia
When…the seasons change?
Corinne
One day, you’re like, “I’m cold. Guess I’ll go get my sweaters box?”
Virginia
Wait, do you really not do that? Well I guess you live in New Mexico so the weather variation is different.
Corinne
No, it gets very cold here. I feel like you don’t understand.
Virginia
I do understand!
Corinne
I guess I never feel that organized about it. I’m like, “Wait, I’m cold. Where are my sweaters?”
Virginia
Well, honestly, I probably do two mini clean outs per season because I feel like there are the micro seasons, you know, the shoulder seasons.
Corinne
That’s like a clean out every two weeks!?
Virginia
Probably every six to eight weeks? I don’t know. It isn’t really that much work though because I’m constantly like, “Oh, we’re now wearing open toed shoes.” I don’t know how to explain weather to you, Corinne!
Corinne
I mean, I don’t think it’s the weather I’m struggling with.
Virginia
I think usually in October or late September/early October is when I tend to do it for fall. So that’s when it starts to get a little bit like chillier here.
Corinne
But it’s not like in your calendar. It’s just like, a day comes where you’re like today is the day.
Virginia
Yeah. I mean, it tends to be a Sunday afternoon where I’m like, doing laundry anyway and then I deal with the closet and I move everything around. And I do my kids’ as well. For them I put their out of season stuff in bins on the high shelf in their closet.
For my closet, which is a decent size. I actually have some extra hanging space—divorce privilege!—that used to house someone else’s clothes. So now I have a space where I can rotate stuff through. So I still have my sweaters on hangers. I just moved them all to that side of the closet. And then I have the stuff I’m wearing right now all on one rack.
I’m excited to do more on closets. I think it’s very interesting. I think you learn a lot about people.
Corinne
I feel targeted. Um, next question.
Is scent part of your personal style?
Virginia
I’m so fascinated about this. I think how in the comments recently you were saying that you feel like people are either music neurodivergent or podcast neurodivergent or whatever? I think I am scent neurodivergent, which is I don’t ever think about like, having a scent. Like, I don’t really register scents. Except I am also very anxious that that means my house smells bad all the time and people aren’t telling me.
Corinne
Oh, wow.
Virginia
So I guess I have some scent anxiety.
Corinne
Interesting. I would say maybe I’m the opposite. I’m really sensitive to scents and have a very strong sense of smell. And I like some scents, and I like smelling people’s perfumes or whatever, sometimes. But I have a really hard time wearing scents because it’s almost like it’s distracting. Like, it’s like white noise. If I put on perfume, after a while I’m like, get it off of me. After like six hours.
Virginia
No, I get that.
Corinne
And because of the world we live in, so many products are scented. Like laundry detergent, shampoo, deodorant—that is often enough for me. I can smell people’s deodorant and their laundry detergent. One time at my old job, it was the day after a party or something and someone had left a jacket behind. And I picked it up and caught a whiff of it and was like, “Oh, this is so and so’s.” Like, in that weird way where you’re like, I cannot tell people that I identified this by smell.
Virginia
Yeah, I never wear perfume. I just don’t think of it though? That’s what I mean.
Corinne
I theoretically like it. And I like the idea of smelling stuff, but it’s just so rare that I actually like something. I do enjoy reading about perfume stuff, like
had a really good perfume newsletter for a while. And Christina Loff, our friend at Substack has a cool scent Substack called The Dry Down Diaries 💅.
Virginia
That is really cool. I kind of feel about this the way I feel about wine. It would be nice to have more knowledge about this, but I don’t think I really want to put in the effort to learn about it.
But I will say, since we did just adopt kittens, as we are going to discuss later in this episode—I am now extremely anxious about how my house smells. Because I think you really know when you’re in a cat house if it’s not being managed well. We’re cleaning the litter box obsessively. And I did just get one of those plug-in scent things. It hasn’t arrived yet, so I haven’t tried it out yet.
The problem is, in order to get the children to clean it, the litter box has to be somewhat accessible. So I can’t just have the litter in the basement, which is what we we used to do with our old cat. It’s in an upstairs bathroom. And so I do feel like now it’s a little too central. I’m trying to figure out a workaround. So I’m going to see if having a scent strategy for my home is the answer.
Corinne
Interesting! I’ll be curious how that works.
Virginia
But for my body, I’m just like, no. I smell fine with just deodorant. It seems like enough.
Corinne
Yeah. Do you use scented detergent?
Virginia
Not consciously?
Corinne
But like, you don’t buy unscented?
Virginia
I think I do? I don’t know.
Corinne
It’s crazy to me that you don’t know, but okay.
Virginia
I don’t have a strong position.
Corinne
Wow. Fascinating. That is something that comes up on SellTradePlus a lot. When you’re buying used clothing and then you buy it and it has someone else’s detergent smell. Some people are really sensitive to it.
Virginia
One of my favorite smells in the whole world is Comfort fabric softener which is a UK fabric softener because my grandmother and my aunt always used it. When I smell things with Comfort on them, I’m like, oh, childhood, family. And I’m pretty sure it’s an incredibly toxic chemical, but I love the smell of that.
All right. Next question.
Chambray/collared button up shirt?
Go, Corinne.
Corinne
I feel like this is really your wheelhouse. Chambray?
Virginia
You’re the reason I wear collared button-up shirts!
Corinne
I’m feeling like I’m looking for a collared button-up shirt right now. But maybe I’m always looking for them. Is this long sleeve shirts or short sleeve?
Virginia
Oh, I assumed long sleeve. I don’t wear buttoned up short sleeve shirts.
Corinne
Okay, I wear a button up short sleeve.
Virginia
I know you do.
Corinne
I have the Universal Standard one. And I’m sort of like medium on it.
Virginia
I like it better in the cooler months. It’s a little heavy for right now.
Corinne
That makes sense. I have one denim button down that I love. And I feel like I’m struggling to find like a super lightweight one.
Virginia
I am wearing a lot of these Target button down shirts this summer. (Plus sold out in that link, sorry!) I have two of their linen ones. And two of their cotton ones—cotton percale? I don’t know. They remind me of percale cotton. And I’m really enjoying them. They are quite oversized. And sometimes they feel like they’re the wrong length with shorts. So I’m deciding how I feel about that. But I do really like the general feel of them. And the length is really nice. But that’s my button up shirt story is Target and Universal Standard. We’re not very original.
Corinne
Those are good recs.
Virginia
I also feel like it’s not something you need to overthink.
Corinne
Yeah. I always think the ideal one is probably like vintage but that’s so hard to find. I also was going to say I did just see some really cute ones on Anthropologie, which this is what prompted my “does Anthropologie sizing work for me?” question. The Bennett stripe button up is the style and they have a bunch of cute striped colors and stuff.
Virginia
I’m curious to see how much better they are than the Target one.
Corinne
Who knows.
Virginia
I think just like with jeans, there is not a big difference between the $300 pairs of jeans and the $40 pair of jeans. All the jeans are kind of the same. I think button down shirts are another thing where you’re paying for the label. I don’t think the quality is that different. I think once upon a time, sure, if you’re buying your shirts on Savile Row and getting hand-stitched cuffs and whatnot. But like, when I’m talking about a shirt that I’m going to roll up the sleeves, I’m going to not iron it. I’m going to wear it unbuttoned over a bra, like…
Corinne
Well, I want you to order and tell us.
I did just get a long sleeve one up from Wray that I’m excited about.
Virginia
That’s different because it’s going to be a very fun fabric.
Corinne
Do you have a non-negotiable self care practice? What does that term mean to each of you?
Virginia
I had to really think about this.
Corinne
Me too. “Non-negotiable,” I think, is a tripping point for me.
Virginia
Everything is negotiable?
Corinne
Well, kind of.
Virginia
I almost want to say, if it’s not negotiable, is that a problem for you?
Corinne
Yeah, exactly.
Virginia
It’s like, I’m trapped in diet culture in my self care.
Corinne
For example, yesterday, I was like, “I really need a house day.” Like, I need to spend a day alone in my house, and do some cleaning, do some cooking, do some organizing. But that’s not a non-negotiable thing for me every week. If someone was like, “Do you want to go to dinner on Sunday?” I wouldn’t be like, “No, Sunday is my house day.” You know?
Virginia
If something comes up, you’re not wedded to the house day.
I have often wished I was more non-negotiable with exercise. For me, exercise is often the first thing to cross off the to do list when I’m feeling busy or overwhelmed. I’m like, “Oh, I don’t have time for that.” And then I’m, like, “Oh, my back hurts. I wish I had made time for that.”
But I do think I will prioritize some kind of downtime in my day, whether that’s watching TV or doing a puzzle, reading a book for a little bit. Garden time. One non-negotiable for me in the summer is every morning, I’m going to go out and walk around my garden.
Corinne
That’s a nice one.
Virginia
But that’s seasonal. But I think some kind of wind down, power down time. If I don’t have that I feel extremely sad.
Corinne
I’ve started to think about self-care less as face masks or whatever, and more as like, cleaning, cooking for myself, going to the gym, changing your bedsheets. I’ve started to think about chores more as self-care, rather than necessarily a relaxing activity. Even though they’re both different ways of self care.
But I think, like, where you’re more type A, I’m more like, “I could lie in bed all day.” I’m realizing, oh, it’s actually self care to do stuff that will make my life easier and better.
Virginia
Well, also, I have to do the chores, right? I’m parenting and caregiving. So I have to keep our lives running. And so cleaning and cooking does not feel like self-care for me at all. Because it’s in the service of other people. Like, it’s not in service of just me, right? I mean, tidying up the house is for me. Before I go to bed or first thing every morning I always go around my entire downstairs and do a sweep, picking up all the clutter. And that one is for me. Cooking does not feel like self-care for me. If I could never cook again…I’m just currently in a place of, it’s a necessity and I’m good at it. But it’s not a joy thing for me right now.
Corinne
I don’t think it’s a joy thing for me either. But I think it’s like, I’m doing this because it’s going to make my life easier. You know? Like, I’m going to make food and have it in my fridge so I’m not Doordashing every night.
Virginia
Oh see I’m like, but isn’t that why we have Doordash, Corinne?
Corinne
I mean, absolutely no judgment. Sometimes I don’t even want to DoorDash.
Virginia
Am I going to order sushi for the third time this week? Right after we finish this, I have to figure out what I’m making for dinner. And I think I’m just ordering sushi because I have no bandwidth.
I think because I spend a lot more active time in chore and caregiving mode, I think the self-care that I have to make non-negotiable is rest. And I do notice my exhaustion level tick up if I don’t. I’m single parenting nine days in a row. I need to force some rest pockets into that. It’s a lot of stamina. Otherwise when I then have my solo weekend, I’m just like, comatose on the couch. I can’t be so depleted by the end of it. So I’m trying to figure out that balance.
Corinne
When I put off those self-care tasks, it doesn’t affect anyone else, you know?
Virginia
Right. I mean, I can put off some and no one cares.
Corinne
Do you have any summer book recommendations?
Virginia
I have a bunch!
Corinne
I’m excited about this question, because I feel like I need some summer book recommendations
Virginia
I'm Mostly Here to Enjoy Myself: One Woman's Pursuit of Pleasure in Paris,
’s new memoir. You’re probably seeing it all the places.
Corinne
Everyone is reading that.
Virginia
It’s so fun. And it’s also more subversive and powerful than I think you might first realize. Like, yes, it’s about a woman who at 46 or 47 took herself to Paris for a few months, and just ate a lot of delicious food, and had sex with a lot of men, and that sounds like well yay! But it’s like not Eat, Pray, Love at all. Because it doesn’t end with “and then she found love,” right? She’s like, I found my power and I’m centering my own pleasure and joy.
I am just about to start All Fours by Miranda July. I’m very excited. People are calling it the perimenopause but also the women-over-40 sex book. So that’s pertinent to my interests. I’m really excited to get into that one. So those are two more literary recommendations.
[Post-recording note: I’ve finished All Fours and I very much agree with
’s take here and samantha irby here!]
And then, for some some fun easy reads. A very good rom com feminist romance I just finished is called Barely Even Friends by Mae Bennett. It has a fat protagonist who has been hired to renovate a giant historic estate. And the only resident is this curmudgeonly, reclusive hot guy. It’s a modern retelling of Beauty and the Beast, for sure. And Beauty and the Beast is a problematic narrative to retell because it does reinforce a lot of toxic relationship dynamics but Mae Bennett has updated appropriately. It’s fun if you like house stuff, too. It’s got that nice little sprinkling of home renovation with your romcom.
And I am now finally working my way through the Bridgerton books. I think I’m late to that party. I think a lot of people have done that. But if you haven’t, I think they’re a good mind eraser. Just a lovely little rabbit hole to fall down. I do think the show is better for a lot of reasons. The books do not have the diversity of the show. That was all Shonda. The Duke is white and the sex is much less feminist. Like, all the women are these delicate, innocent, virgin types and that I’m not so here for. But you know, if you’ve just finished season three and you’re feeling a little bereft and you want to be in the world a little longer, then it’s good.
Corinne
I’ve been curious about those.
Virginia
I don’t know how you would feel about them. I mean, you do like the show. But there are some exasperating parts to them. But it’s kind of fun to go back to them after having watched the seasons that they’ve made the books about ready to be like, oh, here’s what they did differently. There’s a lot that they did that they ended up doing in season three for Penelope’s character that’s much better than the original book. And it was nice to see that. Colin is underwhelming in every medium. It’s what it is.
Corinne
Well my recs are, I just read Housemates and loved it. The other one is one someone just recommended to me so I haven’t read it yet, but Delilah Green Doesn’t Care. Have you read those books? They’re queer romance. I’m curious if people have read those. And then I also just read Big Swiss. Did you read that?
Virginia
I did read Big Swiss. What did you think of it?
Corinne
I loved it! And a lot of people hated it, which is why I really wanted to ask you, but I loved it. I thought it was hilarious. I don’t know, I just loved it. One thing I liked about it is I felt like everyone in it had a normal weird job and lived a normal weird life. Part of it is her living in this falling apart house.
Virginia
I mean, it wasn’t normal…
Corinne
I don’t know. I just feel like I know so many people like that actually, it’s kind of realistic. But I don’t know.
Virginia
I hear what you’re saying.
Corinne
And she’s a gig worker, essentially. I just found it refreshing.
Virginia
It definitely captured some realistic qualities of Hudson, New York. I was like, yep, this is very Hudson. I’m going to get cranky emails for saying that, but it was true. I read it a few months ago, so I’m trying to remember what I particularly didn’t like about it. I think I did not like the Swiss lady?
Corinne
Yeah, I mean, she’s really odd.
Virginia
She’s so odd and unlikable, and I was like, Why? Why is this who you want? I just didn’t buy the relationship? The sex felt very… I don’t know. I was like, this doesn’t seem fun for you.
Corinne
Yeah. I mean, it’s a really odd book. There’s a lot of really odd stuff in it. But I really liked Big Swiss so maybe give it a try.
Butter!
Virginia
Oh, they’re sleeping right now.
Corinne
Oh my God. So cute.
Virginia
Okay, so we adopted two kittens. Who can I hold responsible for this? Obviously, my children, who launched an extensive letter writing campaign saying we needed kittens. I also have to blame
and Meagan Hatcher-Mays, because I’ve been listening to their very funny podcast and they did a whole episode where Meagan impulse adopted a dog and it was just so good. I was filling out a shelter application like an hour after I listened to it. Meagan kept saying, “I went into a fugue state and drove to Pennsylvania and adopted a dog” and I think it was contagious?
I mean, the kids and I have been talking about having cats again for a while. Although I now present as a dog owner, I identify as a cat person more. I originate as a cat person. I had four cats throughout my childhood. Then we adopted three cats is our 20s, one of whom is still alive. But when we divorced, my kids’ dad took that old man cat and I kept the dog, because they did not get along well. And since then, for about the past year, we haven’t had any cats in the house and so I lost my mind.
And now we have five pets in this house.
Corinne
Wow. Tell me about how fun they are.
Virginia
They’re so cute and fun! They’re bonded littermates. They are brothers. Their names are Licorice and Cheese, named by my children. They sleep all curled up together. They play and eat each other’s faces. I really encourage anyone who is going to adopt a kitten, get a bonded littermate pair like that, because they’re just so much easier because they are happy together. Two is not more work really. You’re already scooping litter. And they are just funny and really snuggly. They really liked being held. That’s the reason we went with kittens versus older rescues, because I wanted cats that would bond with my kids, which these definitely are. It’s really fun.
And Penelope has…adjusted. The first week was rough. I would describe it as an existential crisis. She did not understand what happened or why. I did this whole process of gradually getting them together. And then finally got to the point where I was throwing out treats and all three of them were eating the treats. And I was like, we’re here. We’ve done it!
So I’m glad now that we did this and not a second dog, which would still be so much work. They’re really cute. Let me now pass on the podcast pet influencing, and influence someone else to go adopt a pet that they probably don’t need.
Corinne
Okay, my Butter is hot dogs.
Virginia
That’s a good one.
Corinne
Yeah, I’ve really been enjoying eating hot dogs. I got some fancy co-op brand hot dogs.
Virginia
Is there a difference between a fancy brand?
Corinne
I mean, probably not, but but any fancy thing you buy at a co-op is automatically more exciting. I do think the best hot dog buns the brioche hot dog buns from Trader Joe’s. And I’ve been eating them. It’s such a nice quick meal. I’m like, oh, yeah, I can have a hot dog! And I like to eat them with baked beans and a salad or something.
Virginia
I’ve never thought about that! That’s a good combination.
Corinne
What? Did you grow up in New England? Baked beans and hotdogs is a classic combo.
Virginia
I grew up in like, beans on toast territory.
Corinne
Oh my God.
Virginia
A deprived existence. I do want more interesting things to put on hot dogs because I have one kid who loves hot dogs. So it is an easy dinner for us.
Corinne
I like relish. My other best toppings are both from Trader Joe’s. One is Trader Joe’s dill pickle mustard, which is really good. And I also like to buy, they have these frozen bags of grilled peppers and onions.
Virginia
Yeah, that sounds delicious.
Corinne
They just take like a minute or two to like heat up and they’re really good on a hotdog or a sausage.
Virginia
I don’t know if I’ve figured out my sausage personality.
Corinne
You should experiment because I feel like there are a lot of good sausages out there now.
Virginia
Well. This conversation is taking a turn.
Corinne
There’s gotta be some bougie Hudson Valley sausages.
Virginia
Yes, I’m sure there are! I need to explore.
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The Burnt Toast Podcast is produced and hosted by Virginia Sole-Smith (follow me on Instagram) and Corinne Fay, who runs @SellTradePlus, and Big Undies—subscribe for 20% off!
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