Ian Buruma, historian and journalist, talks about his new book and shares interesting anecdotes from his life growing up in The Hague, studying art history and Chinese, and living in various cities. He discusses the complexities of human behavior, the injection of comedy into dark subjects, and the manipulation of truth by political forces. He also explores the complexity of Trump's character and questions his success and popularity.
The book 'The Collaborators' by Ian Buruma explores the complex lives of individuals during World War II who engaged in morally questionable actions but grappled with shifting identities amidst dictatorship and occupation.
The podcast discussion highlights the negative consequences of oversimplification in political and cultural contexts, emphasizing the importance of nuanced discussions to counter polarizing narratives.
Deep dives
The Complexity of Characters: Exploring the Lives of Unconventional Figures
In this podcast episode, the host interviews Ian Buruma, a historian and journalist, about his new book, The Collaborators, which delves into the lives of three seemingly disparate individuals from World War II: Felix Kirsten, the personal masseur of Heinrich Himmler; Kawashima Yoshiko, a cross-dressing Manchu princess who spied for the Japanese secret police; and Friedrich Weinreb, a Jewish immigrant who betrayed fellow Jews. Despite their morally questionable actions, Buruma emphasizes the complexity and humanity of these characters, and how they grappled with shifting identities during a time of dictatorship and occupation. The discussion also touches on the rise of extremism, the erosion of truth in modern society, and the challenges faced by liberal voices amidst growing polarization.
The Dangers of Oversimplification in Politics and Culture
Buruma and the host explore the negative consequences of oversimplification in both political and cultural contexts. They highlight how reducing complex issues, such as inequality or racial tensions, to simplistic explanations can hinder meaningful understanding and dialogue. They discuss the dangers of a lack of intellectual diversity, where certain views are suppressed and dissenting voices are demonized. The conversation touches on the rise of conspiracy theories, the erosion of trust in traditional institutions, and the need to engage in nuanced discussions to counter polarizing narratives.
The Impact of Trump and the Current Political Landscape
The conversation dives into the impact of the Trump administration and its role in exacerbating extreme leftism. Buruma argues that Trump's presidency has helped fuel certain elements of the left, while also noting that his brand of politics does not align with traditional conservative values. They discuss the challenges faced by the Democratic Party and how Trump's actions and rhetoric have further polarized political discourse. They highlight the importance of avoiding overgeneralizations and embracing moral complexity when analyzing political figures and events.
The Search for Truth and the Role of Institutions
Buruma and the host explore the erosion of truth in modern society and the challenges this poses. They discuss the role of institutions, such as universities and media outlets, in gatekeeping and filtering information. They emphasize the need for a fair and balanced exchange of ideas, highlighting the dangers of dismissing opposing views or demonizing dissenting voices. They also delve into the power struggles within cultural institutions and the importance of maintaining trust in order to foster meaningful conversations and understanding.
Ian is a historian, a journalist, and an old friend. He’s currently the Paul Williams Professor of Human Rights and Journalism at Bard College, and he served as foreign editor of The Spectator and (briefly) as the editor of TheNew York Review of Books. He has written many books, including Murder in Amsterdam: The Death of Theo Van Goghand the Limits of Tolerance, Theater of Cruelty, and The Churchill Complex. His new book is The Collaborators: Three Stories of Deception and Survival in World War II.
For two clips of our convo — on Trump’s redeeming qualities, and the story of massage therapist for Nazi leader Heinrich Himmler — pop over to our YouTube page. Other topics: Ian growing up in The Hague; his father the Mennonite minister; his “glamorous” mother from a Jewish family of actors and musicians; Ian studying art history, film, and Chinese; his young life in London, Berlin, Hong Kong, and Tokyo; comparing Japan and the UK as island nations; how dictatorships are rife for fantasy and escape; injecting comedy into dark subjects; the conspiracy theories of the MAGA right and the postmodern left; the 2020 riots; how conservative elites in both parties were once a filter against demagogues like Trump; “the armies of DEI advisers”; Kendi’s collapse, Ian’s praise of heterodox liberals like Pamela Paul; his cancellation at the NYRB for publishing a #MeToo piece; how Trump is “the biggest accelerant of extreme leftism”; how conmen and cult leaders are sensitive to what people want to hear; Jeffrey Dahmer talking to a priest; Bernie Madoff; a Jewish character in Ian’s book who convinced other Jews to pay him to avoid the death camps; Pizzagate; Trump pretending to be other people over the phone; Sydney Powell and Roger Stone; the “dictators’ disease” of headaches and ulcers from paranoia; how servants become spies and go-betweens; Cassidy Hutchinson; debating the merits of Brexit; Keir Starmer; the war in Ukraine; the near impossibility of regaining the Donbas; Kissinger’s solution; and the sunk cost of human lives.
Browse the Dishcast archive for another convo you might enjoy (the first 102 episodes are free in their entirety — subscribe to get everything else). Coming up: Martha Nussbaum on her book Justice For Animals, Spencer Klavan on How to Save the West: Ancient Wisdom for 5 Modern Crises, and Matthew Crawford, author of Shop Class as Soulcraft. Also, two NYT columnists: David Brooks and Pamela Paul. Please send any guest recs, pod dissent and other comments to dish@andrewsullivan.com.
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