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#247 – Jamie Metzl: Lab Leak Theory

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Dec 8, 2021

Guest

Jamie Metzl

Jamie Metzl, an expert in genetic engineering and biotechnology, dives deep into the lab leak theory and its implications regarding COVID-19's origins. He discusses the importance of transparency in scientific discourse and the consequences of governmental cover-ups, particularly in authoritarian regimes. Metzl also highlights the complexities of public trust in science and the ethical dilemmas surrounding genetic research. This engaging conversation challenges listeners to think critically about the intersection of science, politics, and public health.

05:01:37

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insights

INSIGHT

Unusual Adaptation of SARS-CoV-2

SARS-CoV-2 emerged ready to infect humans, lacking the usual messy evolutionary history seen in other viruses.
This unusual characteristic raises questions about a potential lab origin.

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ANECDOTE

Hypothetical Wet Market Scenario

Metzl challenges the wet market theory with a hypothetical scenario: an isolated individual travels to Wuhan, goes straight to Huanan market, and infects everyone.
This scenario lacks evidence, and Chinese animal samples show no viral evolution history.

insights

INSIGHT

Huanan Market's Role

The Huanan Seafood Market likely amplified the virus's spread, but it may not be the origin.
The lack of early case data from the Chinese government hinders a definitive conclusion.

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Unraveling the Lab Leak Theory

02:04 • 6min

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Origins of COVID-19: Lab Leak vs. Natural Pathways

07:53 • 20min

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Crisis and Information Management in Authoritarian Regimes

28:05 • 10min

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Exploring the Origins and Function of the Wuhan Institute of Virology

37:44 • 3min

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Exploring the Controversies of the Wuhan Institute of Virology

40:16 • 5min

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Pandemic Research Ethics and Origins

45:34 • 29min

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Navigating Public Trust in Science

01:15:01 • 15min

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Navigating Complex Conversations

01:30:14 • 30min

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Strategic Ambitions and Global Implications

02:00:09 • 2min

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Censorship and Control in Authoritarian Regimes

02:01:59 • 8min

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Navigating Hope and Humor in North Korea's Economic Aspirations

02:10:13 • 4min

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Unraveling Patient Zero

02:14:39 • 13min

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The WHO and the Pandemic: A Complex Relationship

02:27:45 • 24min

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The Transparency Dilemma in Pandemic Origins

02:51:46 • 18min

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The Crucial Role of Free Speech in Government Accountability

03:09:53 • 2min

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Uncovering the Lab Leak Theory

03:11:32 • 4min

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Exploring Genetics and Reproduction

03:15:40 • 16min

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Genetics, Intelligence, and Ethical Dilemmas

03:32:07 • 19min

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Humor and Science: Bridging the Gap

03:51:07 • 31min

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Exploring Inner Strengths through Endurance Sports

04:22:03 • 4min

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Endurance and Preparation: Insights for Aspiring Ultramarathoners

04:26:17 • 4min

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Cacao Ceremonies and Global Interdependence

04:30:37 • 29min

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Reflecting on Complex Issues and Deep Conversations

In 'Genesis Code', Jamie Metzl crafts a gripping narrative set in 2023, where China has become the dominant world power and the U.S. is struggling to regain its footing. The story follows Rich Azadian, a journalist investigating the murder of a young woman linked to a powerful evangelical leader and a mysterious genetic enhancement program. As Azadian delves deeper, he uncovers a complex web of genetic manipulation, international intrigue, and religious influence.

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Eternal sonata

Jamie Metzl

In 'Eternal Sonata', journalist Rich Azadian delves into a mystery involving missing scientists and a quest for immortality. The story unfolds as Azadian discovers a brilliant scientist, Noam Heller, who uses Arctic jellyfish DNA to reverse-age cells, promising a breakthrough in human longevity. However, Heller's murder sets off a dangerous race among corporations and intelligence services to control this technology. The novel explores themes of human greed, ethics, and the implications of extreme life extension.

#7096

• Mentioned in 4 episodes

Hacking Darwin

Jamie Metzl

In 'Hacking Darwin', Jamie Metzl delves into the transformative power of genetic technologies, exploring their potential to reshape human life while examining the ethical considerations and risks associated with genetic engineering. The book provides a balanced perspective on the promises and challenges of this emerging field.

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• Mentioned in 10 episodes

Viral

The Search for the Origin of COVID-19

Matt Ridley

Alina Chan

In 'Viral', Alina Chan and Matt Ridley delve into the mystery of COVID-19's origins, scrutinizing evidence and hypotheses, including the potential laboratory leak or natural spillover. The book provides a detailed account of the detective work by scientists and amateur sleuths to understand the pandemic's beginnings.

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• Mentioned in 9 episodes

The Long Game

Rush Doshi

#3474

• Mentioned in 8 episodes

Invisible Cities

Italo Calvino

Invisible Cities is a novel by Italo Calvino that defies traditional narrative structures. The book revolves around the conversations between Marco Polo and Kublai Khan, where Polo describes 55 imaginary cities he encountered during his travels. These cities are not just physical places but also metaphors for human experiences, desires, and the passage of time. The novel explores themes of memory, place, and the subjective nature of experience, highlighting how our perceptions of cities and the world are shaped by our personal histories and biases. The cities described by Polo are often reflections of his home city, Venice, and serve as vehicles for Calvino's commentary on human nature, culture, and the limits of communication.

Jamie Metzl is an author specializing in topics of genetic engineering, biotechnology, and geopolitics. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
– Mizzen+Main: https://mizzenandmain.com and use code LEX to get $35 off
– NI: https://www.ni.com/perspectives
– GiveDirectly: https://givedirectly.org/lex to get gift matched up to $300
– Indeed: https://indeed.com/lex to get $75 credit
– Blinkist: https://blinkist.com/lex and use code LEX to get 25% off premium

EPISODE LINKS:
Jamie’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/JamieMetzl
Jamie’s Website: https://jamiemetzl.com/
Jamie’s lab leak blog post: https://jamiemetzl.com/origins-of-sars-cov-2/
Hacking Darwin (book): https://amzn.to/3lLqLsM

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OUTLINE:
Here’s the timestamps for the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time.
(00:00) – Introduction
(07:44) – Lab leak
(1:06:18) – Gain-of-function research
(1:15:49) – Anthony Fauci
(1:25:31) – Francis Collins
(1:30:13) – Joe Rogan, Brett Weinstein, and Sam Harris
(2:00:10) – Xi Jinping
(2:14:41) – Patient Zero
(2:27:55) – WHO
(2:51:45) – Government transparency
(3:13:45) – Likelihood of a cover-up
(3:15:34) – Future of reproduction
(3:51:12) – Jon Stewart
(3:56:31) – Joe Rogan and Sanjay Gupta
(4:21:36) – Ultramarathons
(4:31:38) – Chocolate
(4:39:51) – One Shared World
(4:54:54) – Hope for the future

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