Chatter: Coups and Counterintelligence with Peter Strzok
Nov 30, 2023
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Former FBI agent Peter Strzok discusses his career in counterintelligence, including investigating Russian interference in the 2016 US elections. He shares personal experiences living in Iran during coups and political unrest. The podcast also covers the challenges of counterintelligence, major spy cases, and advice for a younger self.
Real Russian illegals focus on blending in and maintaining low profiles, unlike the dramatic portrayal seen in TV shows.
The investigation into Russian illegals in the United States aimed to prevent potential threats posed by highly trained intelligence officers embedded within the country.
Counterintelligence efforts extend beyond well-known agencies like the FBI, CIA, and NSA, with various government organizations having dedicated counterintelligence components.
Deep dives
Russian illegals as sleeper agents
Russian illegals are highly trained intelligence officers who assume new identities and live undercover in foreign countries. Their goal is to blend in and gain citizenship, avoiding any activities that may raise suspicion or draw attention to their true nature. The reality of their work is far from the dramatic portrayal seen in shows like The Americans. Instead, they focus on maintaining cover and avoiding any operational activities that may expose them. The Russian government invests significant resources into training and supporting these illegals, while counterintelligence efforts are made to identify and monitor them. The overarching purpose of these illegals is to serve as a backup intelligence network in the event of a rupture in diplomatic relations. While the actual operational activities of illegals may not be highly productive, their presence presents security concerns that require attention from intelligence agencies.
The real-life contrast to TV dramas
The reality of Russian illegals is far less thrilling than what is depicted in TV shows like The Americans. Unlike the super-spy characters in the show, real-life illegals don't engage in regular assassinations, save the world, or run off to have affairs for information gathering purposes. Instead, their primary objective is to blend in and maintain low profiles. Real illegals often have noticeable accents and lack familiarity with American culture, making it difficult for them to pass as American citizens. Their activities typically involve tradecraft, such as communication using invisible ink or encrypted messages, while avoiding anything that may draw attention or increase their risk of exposure. The portrayal of illegals in TV shows tends to exaggerate their capabilities and dramatize their actions for entertainment value.
Investigation and arrest of Russian illegals
The Russian illegals in the United States were closely monitored and investigated for nearly a decade before their eventual arrest. The FBI and other government agencies devoted significant resources to track their activities, ranging from electronic and physical surveillance to evidence gathering through searches and wiretaps. While the operational activities of the illegals were minimal, the purpose of the investigation was to prevent any potential threat they may pose as highly trained intelligence officers embedded within the country. Ultimately, ten of the illegals were exchanged for other individuals held by Russia, despite subsequent Russian attempts to conduct assassinations and carry out other hostile actions against individuals involved in the exchange.
Post-arrest status of the illegals
Following their arrests, the Russian illegals returned to Russia and resumed their lives under new identities. Some went on to work for Russian institutions, such as TV networks, to provide expert commentary on Russian culture and the Western mindset. The illegals' children, born in countries like Canada, faced challenges regarding their citizenship, with legal battles deciding their status. The true outcomes and current activities of the illegals remain largely unknown. While the Russian illegals were not as sophisticated or successful as portrayed in TV dramas, their existence and the resources dedicated to them highlight the ongoing dynamic between intelligence services and the need to counter potential threats.
Intelligence work requires caution and circumspection
In the podcast episode, the speaker discusses the mindset needed for intelligence work, highlighting the importance of caution and circumspection. They mention that, in their previous job, they were required to be unnoticed and unseen, always avoiding any risks that might expose the awareness of the bureau. The speaker reflects on the cognitive dissonance they experienced when arresting individuals, emphasizing the sensory response and the mixed feelings that come with it. This allows listeners to understand the careful and deliberate approach required in intelligence work.
The range and complexity of counterintelligence
The podcast episode explores the range of counterintelligence work and the various entities involved in the United States. It is revealed that counterintelligence efforts extend beyond well-known agencies like the FBI, CIA, and NSA. Various government organizations, including the Department of Defense and the Department of Energy, have dedicated counterintelligence components. The episode also highlights the intricate nature of counterintelligence work in the face of evolving technology and increasing vulnerabilities. The speaker touches on the challenges in adapting tradecraft to the digital age and the need for effective oversight by Congress to ensure intelligence community accountability.
Peter Strzok is a former United States Federal Bureau of Investigation agent. He was the Deputy Assistant Director of the FBI's Counterintelligence Division and led the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 United States elections. He speaks with Ben Wittes about the numerous places he has called home and a career spent in counterintelligence.
