Rick Doblin, Ph.D. - MDMA, MAPS & the FDA: What Went Wrong?

Jun 2, 2025

Rick Doblin, Ph.D., the visionary founder of MAPS, shares his journey through the recent FDA rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy, revealing the painful setbacks and the hope that persists. He discusses the vital interplay between therapy and psychedelics, emphasizing the need for public benefit models amid commercialization. The conversation touches on the transformative potential of Ibogaine and explores the essential therapist-patient relationship in healing trauma. Rick envisions a future where spirituality and collective well-being drive the psychedelic renaissance.

Ask episode

AI Snips

Chapters

Books

Transcript

Episode notes

ANECDOTE

Rick's Burnout After FDA Rejection

Rick Doblin felt completely burnt out after the FDA rejected MDMA-assisted therapy.
The internal silencing and quiet period imposed by the pharma management caused this self-inflicted wound.

INSIGHT

Pharma Influence Changed MAPS' Culture

The rise of for-profit psychedelic companies complicated MAPS' nonprofit funding.
Investors pushed MAPS toward traditional pharma methodologies, away from its innovative culture.

INSIGHT

Therapy Is Key for Patient Outcomes

Pharma companies prefer drug-only models for profit maximization.
Rick argues that the best patient outcomes come from combining drugs with therapy.

Get the Snipd Podcast app to discover more snips from this episode

Get the app

In this episode of The Psychedelic Podcast, Paul F. Austin welcomes back Rick Doblin, Ph.D., Founder and President of MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies), for a deeply personal and visionary conversation on the recent FDA rejection of MDMA-assisted therapy.

Find full show notes and links here: https://thethirdwave.co/podcast/episode-306/?ref=278

Rick opens up about the painful setbacks, internal missteps, and his own process of recovery and renewed hope. He explains why this isn’t the end—but a critical turning point for psychedelic medicine.

Rick and Paul unpack the nuances of drug plus therapy, exploring why context, integration, and culture matter as much as pharmacology. They reflect on the future of MAPS, the psychedelic renaissance beyond FDA approval, and how business, politics, and spirituality intersect with healing. The episode also explores Rick’s enduring belief in public benefit models, global collaboration, and the potential of a spiritualized humanity.

Rick Doblin, Ph.D., is the Founder and President of MAPS. He received his doctorate in Public Policy from Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government, and has spent nearly four decades advancing the safe and legal use of psychedelics and marijuana through science, education, and advocacy.

Highlights:

The cost of MAPS' quiet period
Why MDMA therapy was rejected by FDA
Pharma vs. therapy: What’s best for patients?
Drug-only treatments vs. integrated therapy
Ibogaine’s role in brain healing and PTSD
MAPS’ path forward: Phase 4 vs. Phase 3
What the Dutch got right about MDMA
Spiritualized humanity and self-transcendence
The global impact of MAPS’ work
Business, love, and psychedelic ethics

Want to attend this year’s Psychedelic Science 2025 Conference? For our community: Use code THIRDWAVE15 for 15% off registration. Learn more and register at psychedelicscience.org — See you there!

Episode Links

Episode Sponsors:

Golden Rule Mushrooms - Get a lifetime discount of 10% with code THIRDWAVE at checkout
Psychedelic Coacing Isntitute's Intensive for Psychedelic Professionals in Costa Rica - a transformative retreat for personal and professional growth.